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Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 130942 times)

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Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #360 on: Yesterday at 10:30:16 PM »
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  • Can anybody talk to the bold point particularity?

    Here is a quote from the 1941 version of the Baltimore Catechism.

    321. How can those be saved who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism?

    Those who through no fault of their own have not received the sacrament of Baptism can be saved through what is called baptism of blood or baptism of desire.

    https://www.catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/lesson24.html


    This was being taught, and you are saying that the Baltimore Catechism was teaching error to all people in 1941?

    This causes a great scandal.
    Most catechisms, when taken in their entirety, are most certainly not infallible.  Men often interject their opinions into their catechisms, and their opinions are oftentimes most certainly fallacious. It is so ridiculous when Catholics mumble so much gibberish and then say, "Well, the catechism says."  Very often it is the case that the more recent (redacted) catechisms will state what the original catechism did not state.  The modernists do these tricks all the time.  
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #361 on: Yesterday at 10:55:33 PM »
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  • Most catechisms, when taken in their entirety, are most certainly not infallible.  Men often interject their opinions into their catechisms, and their opinions are oftentimes most certainly fallacious. It is so ridiculous when Catholics mumble so much gibberish and then say, "Well, the catechism says."  Very often it is the case that the more recent (redacted) catechisms will state what the original catechism did not state.  The modernists do these tricks all the time. 
    But doesn't the Catechism have an Imprimatur.  This Catechism goes back to 1885.  

    Please show me errors in other Catechisms, again I need to see precedents of error be put forth by those claiming to be Catholic.  If the Church is not protected, then why are we all here?  How do we know for certain that Martin Luther was not right in his 95 theses?

    Also questions 644, 650, 651, 652, 653, and 654 are on this topic from Baltimore Catechism #3, the Imprimatur given by John Cardinal McCloskey (NY) and James Cardinal Gibbons (Baltimore).

    And would this not create generations of people who do not understand the Catholic Faith.

    Maybe we have not had a unified Catholic Church, since King Henry VIII decided he wanted a male heir?

    Maybe everything after the Council of Trent is debatable? 

    Maybe Pius the V was that last true Pope and every Pope after that was an anti-Pope?


    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine


    Offline moneil

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #362 on: Yesterday at 11:51:18 PM »
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  • Quote
    Most catechisms, when taken in their entirety, are most certainly not infallible.  Men often interject their opinions into their catechisms, and their opinions are oftentimes most certainly fallacious. It is so ridiculous when Catholics mumble so much gibberish and then say, "Well, the catechism says."  Very often it is the case that the more recent (redacted) catechisms will state what the original catechism did not state.  The modernists do these tricks all the time. 


    It is true that catechisms are not infallible.  It is also true that catechisms approved by the Church contain the Imprimatur and Nihil obstat, the latter meaning that the Church declares the work to be free of doctrinal and moral error.  When opinions about doctrine or private interpretations of what an official Church docuмent "really means" are expressed here they are likewise NOT infallible, they lack the Imprimatur and Nihil obstatand most likely are given by persons who do not have a Licentiate in Sacred Theology (STL) issued by the Church.  I have no problem in determining what I should give the greater weight to.

    Below are catechisms I have in my library:
    The Faith of Our Fathers, Being a Plain Exposition and Vindication of the Church Founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ
    James Cardinal Gibbons, 1876
    P.J, Kennedy and Sons New York, Printers to the Holy See
    Has been translated into French, German, Spanish, Italian, Norwegian, and Swedish
     
    A Catechism of the Catholic Religion
    Rev. Joseph Deharbe, S.J. 1878
    Schwartz, Kirwin & Fauss New York
    Translated from German
     
    The Question Box, Replies to Questions Received on Missions to Non-Catholics
    Rev. Bertrand L. Conway, C.S.P, 1929
    The Paulist Press, New York
     
    The Spirit of Catholicism
    Fr. Karl Adam, translated from German 1929
    Sheed and Ward London
     
    The Faith of Millions, The Credentials of the Catholic Religion
    Rev. John A. O’Brien, Ph.D., LL.D., 1938
    Our Sunday Visitor Huntington, Indiana
     
    Father Smith Instructs Jackson
    Archbishop John Francis Knoll, D.D., L.L.D., and Fr. Lester J. Fallon, C.M., S.T.D.
    1945

    Baltimore Catechism No. 3, 1949
    Confraternity of Christian Doctrine
    Benziger Brothers

    These are mostly first editions or reprints of the original editions except the Baltimore.  The original Baltimore Catechism #2, issued in 1885 by the Third Plenary Council of Baltimore, is available online and I've compared the two.  They both are in agreement about the point I'm going to make.

    ALL of these approved catechisms teach BOD / BOB.

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #363 on: Today at 01:09:52 AM »
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  • According to non-Feeneyites, the problem is Feeneyites not understanding a particular dogma as the Church understands it.

    Yes. That is the hubris of the SSPX and other Neo Modernist theologians who will taylor dogma according to what seems better and more suited to the culture of this age.

    Dogma is the final word. It is dogma that is infallible. A "Truth from heaven" not the fallible theologians. The dogma is the way the "Church itself understand it". The theologians are not the Church.

    St Pius X says in the Oath against Modernism:

    Quote
    "The purpose of this is, then, not that dogma may be tailored according to what seems better and more suited to the culture of each age; rather, that the absolute and immutable truth preached by the apostles from the beginning may never be believed to be different, may never be understood in any other way.
    I promise that I shall keep all these articles faithfully, entirely, and sincerely, and guard them inviolate, in no way deviating from them in teaching or in any way in word or in writing. Thus I promise, this I swear, so help me God. . ."

    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #364 on: Today at 05:23:17 AM »
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  • But doesn't the Catechism have an Imprimatur.  This Catechism goes back to 1885. 

    Please show me errors in other Catechisms, again I need to see precedents of error be put forth by those claiming to be Catholic.  If the Church is not protected, then why are we all here?  How do we know for certain that Martin Luther was not right in his 95 theses?

    Also questions 644, 650, 651, 652, 653, and 654 are on this topic from Baltimore Catechism #3, the Imprimatur given by John Cardinal McCloskey (NY) and James Cardinal Gibbons (Baltimore).

    And would this not create generations of people who do not understand the Catholic Faith.

    Maybe we have not had a unified Catholic Church, since King Henry VIII decided he wanted a male heir?

    Maybe everything after the Council of Trent is debatable? 

    Maybe Pius the V was that last true Pope and every Pope after that was an anti-Pope?
    An Imprimatur simply says that the cardinal or bishop who put their signature to the book gives it his approval - which *should* mean the approval of the Church, but remember, there are tons of NO books out there with an imprimatur, there are also books on the "forbidden book index" with imprimaturs.

    Because the BC and other catechisms teach a BOD only serves as proof that they are not infallible, and also that an imprimatur does not make it infallible. It does *not* mean the whole catechism is bad, it means there are some points of doctrine within the catechisms that are in need of correction, that's what it means.

    From Trent's catechism:
    Quote
    Doctor John Hogan, the present Rector of the Irish College in Rome, writes thus: "The Roman Catechism is a
    work of exceptional authority. At the very least it has the same authority as a dogmatic Encyclical, -- it is an
    authoritative exposition of Catholic doctrine given forth, and guaranteed to be orthodox by the Catholic Church
    and her supreme head on earth. The compilation of it was the work of various individuals; but the result of their
    combined labors was accepted by the Church as a precious abridgment of dogmatic and moral theology.
    Official docuмents have occasionally been issued by Popes to explain certain points of Catholic teaching to
    individuals, or to local Christian communities; whereas the Roman Catechism comprises practically the whole
    body of Christian doctrine, and is addressed to the whole Church. Its teaching is not infallible; but it holds a
    place between approved catechisms and what is de fide."

    Here is another example re: Q. 282 in the BC #3 (pdf attached)- the catechism teaches that you cannot commit a mortal sin unless you have full knowledge and willingness, full consent. I use this example because there is a question as to who is guilty, is it the false prophet or is it those who listen?

    If it is only the false prophet who is guilty, why is there any need to “beware”? Which is to say if God is not going to blame those who listen, those who are taken in and led astray by the false doctrines, then what reason would He have to warn us at all? 

    Is this not contrary to Our Lord's warning to "beware of false prophets?"  It is at least worthy to consider being corrected - IMO.       
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #365 on: Today at 11:24:55 AM »
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  • Here is the clarity that you need to answer my question.  I wanted the specific dogma that has been handed to us from the Catholic Church in regards to BoD and BoB.  What happens with me, when I am trying to think on my feet, my words come out all jumbled.  It is a humiliation that I have been living with for a long time.  So please provide the official teaching of the Church that condemns BoD and BoB.  If it has not been decided yet, then just say that.

    Gray,

    Merry and Stubborn have already posted a sound reply to your questions, please read these replies carefully on the links below which I fully endorse. Those are all dogmas:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/possible-strict-eens-chapel/msg1014704/#msg1014704

    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/possible-strict-eens-chapel/msg1015080/#msg1015080

    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #366 on: Today at 12:10:14 PM »
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  • Gray,

    Merry and Stubborn have already posted a sound reply to your questions, please read these replies carefully on the links below which I fully endorse. Those are all dogmas:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/possible-strict-eens-chapel/msg1014704/#msg1014704

    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/possible-strict-eens-chapel/msg1015080/#msg1015080
    You are dancing around my main question.  Did the Church defect from itself over 100 years ago?  The Baltimore Catechism is clear on the points of BoB and BoD.  The Church cannot teach error. If the Catechism that has been distributed all over the world teaches this error, then basically what we know of the protections of the Church is all lies. It is really no longer about Father Feeney.
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #367 on: Today at 02:59:10 PM »
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  • You are dancing around my main question. Did the Church defect from itself over 100 years ago?  The Baltimore Catechism is clear on the points of BoB and BoD.  The Church cannot teach error. If the Catechism that has been distributed all over the world teaches this error, then basically what we know of the protections of the Church is all lies. It is really no longer about Father Feeney.

    The Church cannot defect! You already got excellent replies on catechisms not being infallible. I have nothing to add to them. As a convert, and having learned from the BC you are fixated on it. I have known converts that refuse to believe in the dogma "Outside the Church there is no Salvation" because they are attached to relatives that are not Catholics. I have explained to you what faith and dogma are but you seem more concerned with believing in the literal meaning of dogma because you have been taught that practically everybody is saved except for "Feeneyites".

    Faith is believing what God has revealed and that is what dogma is (divine revelation infallibly defined and constitutes the formal object of divine and Catholic faith.)

    St. Paul said:
    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.
    [Galatians 1:8]

    I already quoted St. Augustine who said: "I do not seek to understand that I may believe, but I believe in order that I may understand". That, is faith, and "without faith it is impossible to please God [Hebrews 11:6]

    I suggest you pray to the Holy Ghost to enlighten you and spend more time in prayer. I've been praying for you.


    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)