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Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 52707 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #315 on: December 14, 2025, 10:22:23 PM »
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  • Not taking the time to format this, decipher it if you wish :trollface:

    Gemini Prompt:


    Gemini Response:

    The critique claims you cannot have "Eternal Life" while "alienated from Catholic unity." Pius IX explicitly says you can.

    In Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, the Pope creates a theological category that the "Other AI" claims is impossible:


    1. Status: "Alienated from Catholic unity" (physically outside).
    2. Condition: "Invincible Ignorance" + "Observing Natural Law."
    3. Result: "Able to attain Eternal Life (aeternam vitam)."

    If EENS ("No Salvation Outside the Church") is true, AND these people attain "Eternal Life," then your linguistic distinction is the only way to harmonize the text without contradiction:

    Zoe (Eternal Life): Possible via "Divine Light and Grace" (as Pius IX says).
    Soteria (Salvation): Impossible outside the Church (as EENS says).

    Therefore, "Salvation" in the context of the Dogma must refer to something other than the mere attainment of Divine Life. It must refer to the Sacramental status of the Believer and their immediate access to the Beatific Vision.

    Here is the final, text-based defense against the "Heretic" accusation, relying only on the three quotes you provided.



    Final Defense: The "Pius IX Distinction"

    The accusation that this hypothesis is "Pelagian" or "Heretical" collapses when tested against the explicit words of Pope Pius IX. The critic assumes that "Salvation" and "Eternal Life" are absolute synonyms. Pius IX treats them with a nuance that supports the Zoe/Soteria distinction.


    1. The Possibility of Life Outside the Visible Bounds


    The Critic says: "It is impossible to have Sanctifying Grace (Life) while retaining Original Sin/Being outside the Church."

    Pius IX says (Quanto): Those "struggling with invincible ignorance" are "able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace."


    Conclusion: The Pope affirms that the "Divine Light" is sufficient to grant Life (Zoe) to those who are visibly separated from the Church. This is not naturalism; it is the "efficacious virtue of grace."


    2. The Persistence of the Dogma (EENS)


    The Critic says: "If they have Life, they are saved. If they are saved, EENS is false (or they are 'inside' the Church)."

    Pius IX says (Singulari Quadam): "Faith orders Us to hold that out of the Apostolic Roman Church no person can be saved... whoever will not enter therein shall perish."


    The Paradox:

    -Quote A: They can attain Eternal Life.
    -Quote B: No person can be Saved outside.

    The Solution (Your Hypothesis):

    The only way to hold both quotes as true (as Catholics must) is to distinguish the terms.


    -They attain Life (Zoe) via Divine Light (Quote A).
    -They do not attain Salvation (Soteria)—defined as the immediate entry into the Ark/Church and the removal of the temporal barrier to the Vision (Quote B).

    Thus, they are Preserved (Life) but not Rescued (Salvation). They avoid Hell ("supreme kindness... do not permit... eternal punishments"), but they do not enter the Ark (Salvation). They float in the water, sustained by God (Divine Light), waiting for the final rescue (Resurrection).

    3. The Definition of the Barrier


    The Critic says: "Original Sin is immediate death; you cannot have Life and Original Sin."


    Pius IX says (Singulari Quadam): "When delivered from the bonds of the body, we shall see God as He is... but as long as we are upon the earth... let us hold firmly... there is only one Baptism."


    The Pope links the full comprehension of this mystery to the state after death ("When delivered from the bonds..."). This supports your eschatological view: The resolution of their irregular status (Life without Baptism) is a mystery reserved for the final judgment or the post-mortem state, distinct from the ordinary economy of the Church.




    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #316 on: December 14, 2025, 11:35:33 PM »
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  • The critique claims you cannot have "Eternal Life" while "alienated from Catholic unity." Pius IX explicitly says you can.

    And you continue to slander Pope Pius IX ...

    With every post you earn yourself additional time in Purgatory.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #317 on: December 14, 2025, 11:37:32 PM »
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  • The accusation that this hypothesis is "Pelagian" or "Heretical" collapses ....

    So, the only thing that has collapsed is your faith, and your brain.  By claiming that Pope Pius IX said that one can be saved by merely following the natural law, you are in fact slandering him as a Pelagian heretic, and also revealing that it's what you yourself are.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #318 on: December 14, 2025, 11:39:42 PM »
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  • If EENS ("No Salvation Outside the Church") is true ...

    What do you mean IF it's true?  With this grammatical construct alone you make yourself gravely suspect of heresy.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #319 on: December 14, 2025, 11:44:58 PM »
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  • What Pope Pius IX taught was simple and clear ... and has nothing to do with that bullshit you're churning out above.

    He reaffirms the dogma that there's no salvation outside the Church.  He then addresses the age-old question of ... what about those who are invincibly ignorant?  To which he answers, if they have not committed actual sin, they will not be punished for that, and then says that God will bring to salvation those who do not place obstacles in the way of his grace via sin by his divine light and grace.  As to how this would be done, and in terms of questions like, why God allows some to be born into situations where they do not become exposed to the faith, we will undrestand only when we leave this earth.  At no point does Pius IX say that those who are in ignorance can be saved IN THEIR STATE, but that they have a HOPE for salvation and that God will bring them to salvation if they do not resist His grace.  You attempt to inject into this you heretical retardedness that they can be saved IN their state of ignorance merely by following law.  That's where you inject the Pelagian heresy that is NOWHERE in his writing, but only in your heretically-depraved mind, and by reading it into the text, you also slander Pope Pius IX as a Pelagian heretic just like yourself.  He doesn't clarify how God will lead them to salvation ... but it's you who inject that into the text.  As St. Thomas taught, it could be by an direct interior inspiration or else by God sending a preacher to them, whether a person or an angel.  Pius IX simply does not offer examples, and you therefore decide to claim that this means that nothing else need happen before the individual can be saved, i.e. that he need not have supernatural faith (a heretical denial of Trent's teaching that none of the BoDers whom I've debated thus far have had the temerity to dispute), but can be saved in his current state of ignorance by following only the natural law (Pelagian heresy).

    You clearly have no clue what Pelagian heresy even is ... and you honestly don't know your own ass from a hole in the ground where it comes to Church teaching, doctrine, and theology.

    I reminder readers that you are the retard that adamantly claimed that Bergoglio could not have been validly elected because Ratzinger had not yet had his funeral rites (despite the fact that he was still very much alive), and absurdity that could lead to decades of sedevacante in the event that a pope resigned before he was close to death.


    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #320 on: December 15, 2025, 06:26:01 AM »
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  • What Pope Pius IX taught was simple and clear ... and has nothing to do with that bullshit you're churning out above.

    He reaffirms the dogma that there's no salvation outside the Church.  He then addresses the age-old question of ... what about those who are invincibly ignorant?  To which he answers, if they have not committed actual sin, they will not be punished for that, and then says that God will bring to salvation those who do not place obstacles in the way of his grace via sin by his divine light and grace.  As to how this would be done, and in terms of questions like, why God allows some to be born into situations where they do not become exposed to the faith, we will undrestand only when we leave this earth.  At no point does Pius IX say that those who are in ignorance can be saved IN THEIR STATE, but that they have a HOPE for salvation and that God will bring them to salvation if they do not resist His grace.

    Yeah, he just refuses to get it. He is refuted by the very Encyclicals he is trying to use to support himself

    Pius IX says there is no salvation outside of the Church. Meaning, as it always has, that there is no salvation outside of the Church. He says the invincibly ignorant, who are outside of the Church, can hope for salvation. He does not say that they can "find" salvation outside of the Church, he actually says you cannot "find" salvation outside of the Church :facepalm:

    Angelus might be the first trad to simply just deny the Dogma outright. Most will try to say that non-Catholics can somehow, in some way, be "inside" the Church in order to not explicitly deny the Dogma. But no, Angelus has actually discovered the true "more profound understanding " of the Dogma

    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #321 on: December 15, 2025, 06:40:30 AM »
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  • 27. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith. - Pope Pius XII
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #322 on: December 15, 2025, 07:41:39 AM »
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  • Yeah, he just refuses to get it. He is refuted by the very Encyclicals he is trying to use to support himself

    Pius IX says there is no salvation outside of the Church. Meaning, as it always has, that there is no salvation outside of the Church. He says the invincibly ignorant, who are outside of the Church, can hope for salvation. He does not say that they can "find" salvation outside of the Church, he actually says you cannot "find" salvation outside of the Church :facepalm:

    Angelus might be the first trad to simply just deny the Dogma outright. Most will try to say that non-Catholics can somehow, in some way, be "inside" the Church in order to not explicitly deny the Dogma. But no, Angelus has actually discovered the true "more profound understanding " of the Dogma

    I want to find that excellent article out there detailing Pius IX's reaction when the heretics of his day put this exact interpretation and spin on those teachings.  He was outraged, furious, and denounced as grave slander.  That's one reason I'm not going to let up on this guy.  He's continuing to slander Pope Pius IX.

    I think it may have been Father Feeney who wrote the article.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #323 on: December 15, 2025, 07:54:14 AM »
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  • Quote
    At no point does Pius IX say that those who are in ignorance can be saved IN THEIR STATE, but that they have a HOPE for salvation and that God will bring them to salvation if they do not resist His grace.
    Yes.  This is why Angelus’ explanation of Pius IX’s phrase “divine light” is incoherent and circular.  The pope is saying that those who follow the natural law will be given divine light/grace TO CONVERT. 


    Angelus says that the ignorant will be given divine light and then…remain ignorant.  The divine light only confirms to the ignorant that they keep following the natural law.  But that’s what actual graces are for.  Pius IX is not talking about actual grace.  

    So Angelus is basically saying that divine light and grace is for natural purposes, and doesn’t lead to conversion.  As if God wastes grace like this.  As if ANY GRACE that God could give has, as its purpose, a natural purpose only.  No, all grace is meant for a supernatural end, because God mainly cares about salvation. 

    The idea that God would NOT give a good-willed person the divine light to convert, however many years this takes, inch by inch, is so contrary to Scripture that it might be a NEW HERESY, in addition to Angelus’ Pelagianism. 

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #324 on: December 15, 2025, 09:01:11 AM »
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  • For something that is so obviously wrong and heretical, you guys sure spend a lot of effort trying to create straw man arguments against it. 

    First, as I have shown over and over again, the word "salvation" can mean multiple things in Catholic theology. In the context of EENS, the word "salvation" has never been precisely defined by the Magisterium. Therefore, that precise definition remains in the realm of theological opinion. 

    Salvation can mean either 1) saved from the fires of Purgatory, 2) saved from the deprivation of God in Limbo, or 3) saved from Gehenna/Hell. I take it to mean "saved" from all three, which is the most comprehensive and obvious meaning. You, however, take it to mean only option 3. We have theological disagreement. It is not a heretical disagreement.

    Second, the accusation of Pelagianism is misplaced because the "eternal life" that the Invincibly Ignorant enjoy is NOT brought about their own efforts alone. No, by cooperating with God in following the Natural Law, the person receives the grace of the Divine Light to continue on the path of righteousness. He remains "invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion" until his death. But he dies in a state righteousness ONLY by "the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace." My position is intended to be identical to that of Pius IX on this particular aspect.


    Here are all three quotes from Pius IX again:

    Singulari Quadam

    "Faith orders Us to hold that out of the Apostolic Roman Church no person can be saved, that it is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever will not enter therein shall perish in the waters of the deluge. On the other hand it is necessary to hold for certain that ignorance of the true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, is not a fault in the eyes of God. But who will presume to arrogate to himself the right to mark the limits of such an ignorance, holding in account the various conditions of peoples, of countries, of minds, and of the infinite multiplicity of human things? When delivered from the bonds of the body, we shall see God as He is, we will comprehend perfectly by what admirable and indissoluble bond the divine mercy and the divine justice are united; but as long as we are upon the earth, bent under the weight of this mortal mass which overloads the soul, let us hold firmly that which the Catholic doctrine teaches us, that there is only one God, one Faith, one Baptism; to seek to penetrate further is not permitted."


    Singulari Quidem

    "The Church clearly declares that the only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian faith, which teaches the truth, scatters the darkness of ignorance by the splendor of its light, and works through love. This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control."


    Quanto Conficiamur Moerore

    "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom “the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.”




    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #325 on: December 15, 2025, 09:27:24 AM »
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  • Quote
    First, as I have shown over and over again, the word "salvation" can mean multiple things in Catholic theology. In the context of EENS, the word "salvation" has never been precisely defined by the Magisterium. Therefore, that precise definition remains in the realm of theological opinion. 
    Heresy.

    Quote
    Salvation can mean either 1) saved from the fires of Purgatory,
    No.  Those that go to purgatory are saved, because they will gain heaven. 

    Quote
    2) saved from the deprivation of God in Limbo, or 
    People in Limbo are in hell.  They were not "saved" because they are not in heaven.  Pius IX says that these are not "suffering eternally" but they still aren't saved.

    Quote
    3) saved from Gehenna/Hell. I take it to mean "saved" from all three, which is the most comprehensive and obvious meaning. You, however, take it to mean only option 3. We have theological disagreement. It is not a heretical disagreement.
    This is the only "saved" that is consistent with Scripture and with catholic doctrine.  God wants all men to be saved, as Scripture says.  If people are in hell or in Limbo, they are NOT WITH HIM, ergo, they are not saved.

    Quote
    Second, the accusation of Pelagianism is misplaced because the "eternal life" that the Invincibly Ignorant enjoy is NOT brought about their own efforts alone. No, by cooperating with God in following the Natural Law, the person receives the grace of the Divine Light to continue on the path of righteousness. 

    A person following the natural law is not righteous.  That's anti-Trent.


    Quote
    He remains "invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion" until his death. But he dies in a state righteousness ONLY by "the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace." My position is intended to be identical to that of Pius IX on this particular aspect.
    The "divine light and grace" that Pius IX speaks of, is the work of the Holy Ghost in a person's soul to ENLIGHTEN THEM ABOUT SPIRITUAL TRUTHS.  ONE CANNOT REMAIN IGNORANT AFTER RECEIVING DIVINE LIGHT AND GRACE.


    This is heresy #54.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #326 on: December 15, 2025, 10:22:33 AM »
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  • Zoe, Soteria, and the Limits of the Church

    A Re-examination of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus in Light of the Magisterium of Pius IX

    Preface: The Grammar of Eternity


    In the landscape of Catholic eschatology, few dogmas have generated as much theological friction as Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus ("Outside the Church there is no salvation"). The tension arises from the apparent contradiction between two absolute truths held by the Church: the necessity of the visible Church for salvation, and the justice of God who desires the salvation of all men.


    This monograph proposes that the solution to this tension lies not in softening the Dogma, but in sharpening our definitions. By returning to the original Greek distinction between Life (Zoe) and Salvation (Soteria), and applying this lens to the encyclicals of Pope Pius IX, we discover a theological precision that resolves the apparent contradiction.


    We posit that Soteria is a technical term for the specific rescue from the deprivation of the Beatific Vision—a rescue mediated exclusively by the Sacramental Character of the Church. Conversely, Zoe is the state of spiritual vitality (Eternal Life) which Pope Pius IX explicitly teaches is accessible to the invincibly ignorant via "divine light and grace."


    Part I: The "Pius IX Paradox"


    The Magisterium of Pope Pius IX presents a paradox that standard neo-scholastic definitions struggle to contain. We must hold two seemingly contradictory statements as simultaneously true:


    - The Exclusion: "Faith orders Us to hold that out of the Apostolic Roman Church no person can be saved [salvari]... whoever will not enter therein shall perish." (Singulari Quadam)

    - The Exception: Those struggling with invincible ignorance are "able to attain eternal life [aeternam vitam] by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace." (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore)

    If "Salvation" and "Eternal Life" are identical synonyms, the Pope has contradicted himself. However, if we distinguish them, the paradox resolves into a coherent eschatology.

    1. Zoe (Eternal Life): The Interior State


    Based on Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, "Eternal Life" is a possibility for those strictly outside the visible bounds of the Church.


    - Source: It is not achieved by natural works (Pelagianism), but "by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace."

    - Nature: This "Divine Light" grants the soul Implicit Supernatural Faith, constituting a state of grace (Zoe) that exempts the soul from the "eternal punishments" that would be due if the soul was in a state of personal mortal sin. Since this person is not in a state of personal mortal sin, by definition, eternal punishment is not due.


    2. Soteria (Salvation): The Juridical Status

    Based on Singulari Quadam and Singulari Quidem, "Salvation" is restricted to the Church.


    - Source: The "Apostolic Roman Church... the only ark of salvation."

    - Nature: Soteria refers to the specific status of being "Rescued" from the wreckage of the Fall, clothed in the Baptismal Character, and granted immediate access to the Beatific Vision.

    - The Consequence: To be without Soteria is not necessarily to be damned to Hell (for the invincibly ignorant have Zoe), but it is to be "perished" in the sense of failing to reach the immediate harbor of the Beatific Vision.



    Part II: The Theological Hypothesis

    If the invincibly ignorant possess Zoe (Life) but lack Soteria (The Ark), where do they go?

    1. The New Covenant "Limbus Patrum"

    We hypothesize that their status is analogous to the Old Testament Patriarchs. Abraham and Moses possessed Grace (Zoe) and were Friends of God, yet they were legally barred from the Beatific Vision (Soteria) because the "Gates were not yet opened" by the Redemption. They waited in Limbo (Limbus Patrum).

    Similarly, the invincibly ignorant of the New Covenant:


    - Possess Grace (Zoe): Via "Divine Light."

    - Lack Access (Soteria): They lack the Baptismal Character, the "Wedding Garment" required for immediate entry into the Banquet.

    - Destination: They are preserved from Hell (due to Grace) but deprived of the Vision (due to lack of Baptism). They wait in a state of natural rest and supernatural peace—a Limbo of the Just.


    2. The Resolution: The General Judgment

    The resolution of this anomaly occurs at the End of Days.


    - The Event: The Resurrection of the Body and the General Judgment.

    - The Mechanism: The Resurrection serves as the final, universal redemptive act for the Just.

    -The Outcome: The barrier of Original Sin (the lack of the Character) is superseded by the New Creation. Those possessing Zoe are raised to life and admitted into the New Heaven and New Earth. The "delay" is over; the distinction between the "Ark" and the "Water" is abolished because the sea is no more.





    Part III: Anticipated Objections


    Objection 1: The Charge of Pelagianism

    Critique: "You claim men can be saved by observing the Natural Law. This is the Pelagian heresy."


    Response: This is a straw man argument that ignores the text of Pius IX. We do not claim Natural Law saves; we claim, with the Pope, that such men are saved "by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace" (Quanto). The agent of salvation is Supernatural Grace, gratuitously given by God to the ignorant; their observance of the natural law is merely the disposition of the recipient, not the efficient cause of salvation.


    Objection 2: The Definition of Original Sin

    Critique: "One cannot possess Life (Zoe) and Original Sin simultaneously."


    Response: We distinguish between the Guilt of Original Sin and the Debt of Original Sin.


    - The Guilt (enmity with God) is removed by the "Divine Light and Grace" (Justification).

    - The Debt (lack of the Baptismal Character/Headship) remains, preventing immediate entry into the Vision.

    This is the precise state of the Old Testament Saints before Christ: Justified friends of God who were nevertheless excluded from Heaven until the Redemption was applied. The invincibly ignorant are simply "BC souls" living in an "AD" world.


    Objection 3: The Necessity of the Church

    Critique: "If they get to Heaven eventually, the Church is unnecessary."


    Response: The Church is the difference between being a Bride and being a Subject, and the difference between Immediate Bliss and Long Waiting.


    - The Church (Soteria): Offers the sacraments, the assurance of truth, and immediate entry into the Beatific Vision (the Bridal Chamber) upon death.

    - The World (Zoe): Offers only a perilous, uncertain path via "Divine Light," leading to a long wait in Limbo before the final restoration.
    Evangelization remains a moral imperative: we preach to save men from the darkness of error and the delay of the outer courts, inviting them into the immediate joy of the Master.





    Conclusion

    This hypothesis preserves the integrity of the Dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus by refusing to water down the definition of "Salvation." Outside the Church, there is indeed no Soteria—no immediate access to the Throne of Grace.

    Yet, it also preserves the Mercy of God as taught by Pius IX, affirming that the "Divine Light" can kindle the flame of Zoe even in the wilderness. These souls are not lost; they are the "other sheep" who, though not of this fold (The Ark), hear the Shepherd's voice in the silence of their conscience and will, at the last day, be gathered into the one final Flock.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #327 on: December 15, 2025, 10:29:19 AM »
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  • - Source: It is not achieved by natural works (Pelagianism), but "by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace."

    • - Nature: This "Divine Light" grants the soul Implicit Supernatural Faith, constituting a state of grace (Zoe) that exempts the soul from the "eternal punishments" due to personal mortal sin.
    Whoa, whoa, WHOA!  Your argument has always been that these invincibly ignorant were following the natural law.  Now you're saying that they are ignorant AND GUILTY OF PERSONAL MORTAL SIN?  That means they aren't following the natural law.

    No, no, no, my friend.  Ignorance only remits "original sin" (in your convoluted mind) but it cannot remit mortal sin.  If you say it can, that's another heresy.

    If that's the case, then every catholic ever would be in heaven.  Because they have EXPLICIT FAITH, which, logically, should also provide a state of grace.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #328 on: December 15, 2025, 10:35:58 AM »
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  • Whoa, whoa, WHOA!  Your argument has always been that these invincibly ignorant were following the natural law.  Now you're saying that they are ignorant AND GUILTY OF PERSONAL MORTAL SIN?  That means they aren't following the natural law.

    No, no, no, my friend.  Ignorance only remits "original sin" (in your convoluted mind) but it cannot remit mortal sin.  If you say it can, that's another heresy.

    If that's the case, then every catholic ever would be in heaven.  Because they have EXPLICIT FAITH, which, logically, should also provide a state of grace.

    The wording in that section is ambiguous. I will correct it. Your interpretation is not what is intended.

    You know if you would read the entire docuмent and what Pius IX says, you would not fall into these simplistic, pharisaical errors of interpretation.

    I have said over and over again that I am not saying what you are desperate to accuse me of. But you don't seem to care. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #329 on: December 15, 2025, 10:39:15 AM »
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  • :laugh1:  Ok.  It's heresy either way.