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Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 39429 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #285 on: December 14, 2025, 01:22:01 PM »
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  • "I didn't say this, I didn't say that"

    You claim these souls will have Original Sin remitted at/after the Second Coming. Original Sin being the impediment to a soul enjoying the Beatific Vision.

    You claim this will be a "similar event" to Our Lord's Sacrifice, which He offered ONCE, on the cross, for the redemption of mankind. Mankind. Was redeemed. ONCE. This same Redemption is what enabled the OT Just to attain the Beatific Vision.

    So you are either saying some will have Original Sin remitted and will not be able to enjoy the BV, or you are saying the BV is not enjoyed for eternity

    The punishment for Original Sin will have been completed after the Second Coming/General Judgment. The souls who were confined to the Limbo-like places, because they were stained with Original Sin and could not attain the Beatific Vision as disembodied souls, will be finally joined to their glorified bodies. The "place" they will be when that happens is called the New Heaven and New Earth. The disembodied soul will then no longer experience the Beatific Vision because there are no more disembodied souls. 

    In the NHNE (the Kingdom of God), after the General Judgment, the embodied souls will see God face to face [Apoc. 22:4]. That is also the Beatific Vision. But it differs in that it is the final destination for ALL righteous people. It is not the intermediate Beatific Vision that is only accessible to those who are not still stained with Original Sin. 

    The similar event will have to do with Our Lady and her Coronation as Queen of Heaven and Earth. She is Co-Redemptorix. It is through her that the final mysteries will be effected. It will be her time of glory.

    I am staying Original Sin will prevent the unbaptized from experiencing from experiencing the Beatific Vision in the state of a disembodied soul. Once those disembodied souls have been joined to their bodies, they will enter the NHNE and experience the Beatific Vision as souls in their final glorified bodies.

    Your binary, either/or thinking is defective. The reason for that is you are ignorant of Catholic eschatology.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #286 on: December 14, 2025, 01:26:49 PM »
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  • Right.  And the ignorant go to limbo WHICH IS PART OF HELL.  They don’t get to take part in NHNE.  The ignorant of the New Testament ARE NOT the same as the OT Just, your main error.  The ignorant of the New Testament DO NOT go to the Abraham’s Bosom, but the separate place called limbo of the infants. 

    The old vs New Testament had different religious requirements ergo there are different limbos.  The former was a temporary place.  The latter is permanent. 

    No, the Invincibly Ignorant are not culpable for their error, as Pius IX says. And because they are not culpable they will not suffer eternal punishment. 

    After the General Judgment, souls united to their bodies are either punished or rewarded. Pius IX said the Invincibly Ingorant will not suffer eternal punishment. Therefore they will be rewarded. The only reward is the NHNE. It is simple logic.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #287 on: December 14, 2025, 02:27:59 PM »
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  • There is simply no way for Angelus to reconcile what he is saying with Church teaching

    The REASON why infants are in limbo(and why he believes some invincibly ignorant may be), and not enjoying the BV, is because of Original Sin. He says that Original Sin is remitted from their Souls at Christ's Second Coming/General Judgement..well then there is nothing barring them from enjoying the Beatific Vision...yet he claims they will not enjoy the Beatific Vision

    There's also no way to reconcile it with simple logic, since, as you point out, it's contradictory.  This stuff about sin being remitted at the Final Judgment ... that truly savors of the apokatastasis heresy, and he really need to abandon that.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #288 on: December 14, 2025, 02:40:12 PM »
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  • Quote
    In the NHNE (the Kingdom of God), after the General Judgment, the embodied souls will see God face to face [Apoc. 22:4]. That is also the Beatific Vision. But it differs in that it is the final destination for ALL righteous people. It is not the intermediate Beatific Vision that is only accessible to those who are not still stained with Original Sin.

    The similar event will have to do with Our Lady and her Coronation as Queen of Heaven and Earth. She is Co-Redemptorix. It is through her that the final mysteries will be effected. It will be her time of glory.

    Your binary, either/or thinking is defective. The reason for that is you are ignorant of Catholic eschatology.



    I'd much rather be ignorant of eschatology than be so "knowledgeable" of it that I end up denying EENS, the necessity of Baptism, Christ's Redemption of mankind on the Cross, Original Sin Dogma, and Justification Dogma

    Ultimately, and we are back to the "beginning" once again:

    You believe there is salvation outside of the Church

    You do, in fact, believe that the invincibly ignorant who die in their ignorance will attain the Beatific Vision..after 10+ pages of saying "it ain't so"

    You do not believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation

    You do not believe that the Sacraments in general are necessary for salvation

    You do not believe that holding even a single article of the Catholic Faith is necessary for salvation

    You do not believe that Christ, having offered Himself ONCE for the redemption of mankind, died for all (you posit that there will be a second "similar" redemption-like event at the Second Coming for those in limbo)

    ^^The above is probably the worst of them all, just incredibly blasphemous. As has already been explained to you, the REASON that the OT Just were in Limbo was because the Messiah had not yet come and redeemed mankind.

    After the Redemption (only once (as in one (1) time) accomplished), there is no other redemption. It sufficed for not only the OT Just, but for mankind. There is no other "similar event" that will redeem the infants or invincibly ignorant in Limbo.

    It is blasphemous and heretical for you to assert that there will be a second redemption-like event

    Rather than accuse me of being "ignorant" of "Catholic eschatology", you should remove yourself from the study of it, considering the conclusions you draw from your research are diametrically opposed to simple Catholic Faith



    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #289 on: December 14, 2025, 02:46:57 PM »
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  • I'd much rather be ignorant of eschatology than be so "knowledgeable" of it that I end up denying EENS, the necessity of Baptism, Christ's Redemption of mankind on the Cross, Original Sin Dogma, and Justification Dogma

    Ultimately, and we are back to the "beginning" once again:

    You believe there is salvation outside of the Church

    You do, in fact, believe that the invincibly ignorant who die in their ignorance will attain the Beatific Vision..after 10+ pages of saying "it ain't so"

    You do not believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation

    You do not believe that the Sacraments in general are necessary for salvation

    You do not believe that holding even a single article of the Catholic Faith is necessary for salvation

    You do not believe that Christ, having offered Himself ONCE for the redemption of mankind, died for all (you posit that there will be a second "similar" redemption-like event at the Second Coming for those in limbo)

    ^^The above is probably the worst of them all, just incredibly blasphemous. As has already been explained to you, the REASON that the OT Just were in Limbo was because the Messiah had not yet come and redeemed mankind.

    After the Redemption (only once (as in one (1) time) accomplished), there is no other redemption. It sufficed for not only the OT Just, but for mankind. There is no other "similar event" that will redeem the infants or invincibly ignorant in Limbo.

    It is blasphemous and heretical for you to assert that there will be a second redemption-like event

    Rather than accuse me of being "ignorant" of "Catholic eschatology", you should remove yourself from the study of it, considering the conclusions you draw from your research are diametrically opposed to simple Catholic Faith


    Here are all three quotes from Pius IX again:


    Singulari Quadam

    "Faith orders Us to hold that out of the Apostolic Roman Church no person can be saved, that it is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever will not enter therein shall perish in the waters of the deluge. On the other hand it is necessary to hold for certain that ignorance of the true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, is not a fault in the eyes of God. But who will presume to arrogate to himself the right to mark the limits of such an ignorance, holding in account the various conditions of peoples, of countries, of minds, and of the infinite multiplicity of human things? When delivered from the bonds of the body, we shall see God as He is, we will comprehend perfectly by what admirable and indissoluble bond the divine mercy and the divine justice are united; but as long as we are upon the earth, bent under the weight of this mortal mass which overloads the soul, let us hold firmly that which the Catholic doctrine teaches us, that there is only one God, one Faith, one Baptism; to seek to penetrate further is not permitted."


    Singulari Quidem

    "The Church clearly declares that the only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian faith, which teaches the truth, scatters the darkness of ignorance by the splendor of its light, and works through love. This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control."


    Quanto Conficiamur Moerore

    "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom “the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.”


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #290 on: December 14, 2025, 02:58:47 PM »
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  • I'd much rather be ignorant of eschatology than be so "knowledgeable" of it that I end up denying EENS, the necessity of Baptism, Christ's Redemption of mankind on the Cross, Original Sin Dogma, and Justification Dogma

    Ultimately, and we are back to the "beginning" once again:



    You do, in fact, believe that the invincibly ignorant who die in their ignorance will attain the Beatific Vision..after 10+ pages of saying "it ain't so"

    You do not believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation

    You do not believe that the Sacraments in general are necessary for salvation

    You do not believe that holding even a single article of the Catholic Faith is necessary for salvation

    You do not believe that Christ, having offered Himself ONCE for the redemption of mankind, died for all (you posit that there will be a second "similar" redemption-like event at the Second Coming for those in limbo)

    ^^The above is probably the worst of them all, just incredibly blasphemous. As has already been explained to you, the REASON that the OT Just were in Limbo was because the Messiah had not yet come and redeemed mankind.

    After the Redemption (only once (as in one (1) time) accomplished), there is no other redemption. It sufficed for not only the OT Just, but for mankind. There is no other "similar event" that will redeem the infants or invincibly ignorant in Limbo.

    It is blasphemous and heretical for you to assert that there will be a second redemption-like event

    Rather than accuse me of being "ignorant" of "Catholic eschatology", you should remove yourself from the study of it, considering the conclusions you draw from your research are diametrically opposed to simple Catholic Faith


    Let's go through some of these again.

    You said: "You believe there is salvation outside of the Church."

    Pius IX said: "Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control."

    ----------

    You said: "You do not believe that holding even a single article of the Catholic Faith is necessary for salvation."

    Pius IX said: "...it is necessary to hold for certain that ignorance of the true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, is not a fault in the eyes of God."

    So, what you accuse me of, Pius IX himself taught. I am guilty as charged for using Pope Pius IX as my rule of faith. 

    Maybe you should consider replacing Leonard Feeney with Pope Pius IX as your own rule of faith. 



    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #291 on: December 14, 2025, 03:26:09 PM »
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  • "Pius IX as my rule of faith"

    Yeah, we know. Use the Church as your rule of faith, believe what She has taught through Her General Councils and ex cathedra papal teachings, and then apply it to what Pius IX wrote


    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #292 on: December 14, 2025, 03:29:48 PM »
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  • "Pius IX as my rule of faith"

    Yeah, we know. Use the Church as your rule of faith, believe what She has taught through Her General Councils and ex cathedra papal teachings, and then apply it to what Pius IX wrote

    Says the man who puts Leonard Feeney's interpretation of those teachings ABOVE the interpretation of Pius IX. 


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #293 on: December 14, 2025, 03:55:29 PM »
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  • Says the man who puts Leonard Feeney's interpretation of those teachings ABOVE the interpretation of Pius IX.
    That's Fr Feeney to you. And it wasn't his interpretation but simply what the Church teaches.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #294 on: December 14, 2025, 04:02:27 PM »
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  • Says the man who puts Leonard Feeney's interpretation of those teachings ABOVE the interpretation of Pius IX.
    I haven't read Fr. Feeney's interpretation, so I wouldn't be able to say what it is :smirk:

    Here's Fr. Michael Müller, in the late-19th century:


    Quote
    "As there is", says Pius IX., "but one God the Father, one Christ his Son, one Holy Ghost, so there is

    also only one divinely revealed truth, only one divine faith--the beginning of man's salvation and the
    foundation of all justification, by which (faith) the just man lives, and without which it is impossible to
    please God and to be admitted to the Communion of his children; and there is but one true, holy, Catholic, Roman Church and divine teaching Authority, (cathedra) founded upon Peter by the living voice of
    the Lord, out of which (Church) there is neither the TRUE FAITH nor ETERNAL SALVATION, since
    no one, can have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his Mother." (Encycl. Letter, March 17,
    1856.)
    ...
    It must be remembered that every dogma is exclusive, and admits of no interpretation contrary to that

    which it has received from the beginning. To every dogma, therefore, may be added what Pius IX. added to the definition of the Immaculate Conception of the Ever Blessed Virgin Mary, namely: "―Wherefore, if
    any persons--which God forbid--shall presume.to think in their hearts otherwise than we have defined,
    let them know that they are condemned by their own judgment, that they have suffered shipwreck in
    faith, and have fallen away from the unity of the Church"
    ...
    § 7. INVINCIBLE OR INCULPABLE IGNORANCE NEITHER SAVES NOR DAMNS A PER-

    SON.
    ―But, suppose, some one will say, a person, in his inculpable ignorance, believes that he is on the
    right road to heaven, though he is not a Catholic; he tries his best to live up to the dictates of his conscience. Now, should he die in that state of belief, he would, it seems, be condemned without his fault.
    We can understand that God is not bound to give heaven to anybody, but, as he is just, he certainly cannot condemn anybody without his fault.
    Whatever question may be made still in regard to the great truth in question is sufficiently answered in
    the explanation already given of this great truth. For the sake of greater clearness, however, we will answer a few more questions. In the answers to these questions we shall be obliged to repeat what has al-
    ready been said.
    Now, as to the question just proposed, we answer with St. Thomas and St. Augustine: ―There are
    many things which a man is obliged to do, but which he cannot do without the help of divine grace: as,
    for instance, to love God and his neighbor, and to believe the articles of faith; but he can do all this with
    the help of grace; and ‗to whomsoever God gives his grace he gives it out of divine mercy; and to whom-
    soever he does not give it, he refuses it out of divine justice, in punishment of sin committed, or at least
    in punishment of original sin, as St. Augustine says. (Lib. de correptione et gratia, c. 5 et 6; Sum. 22. q.
    ii. art. v.) ―And the ignorance of those things of salvation, the knowledge of which men did not care to
    have is without doubt, a sin for them; but for those who were not able to acquire such knowledge, the
    want of it is a punishment for their sins,‖ says St. Augustine; hence both are justly condemned, and nei-
    ther the one nor the other has a just excuse for being lost.‖ (Epist. ad Sixtum, Edit. Maur. 194, cap. vi.,
    n. 27.)
    Moreover, a person who wants to go East, but, by an innocent mistake, gets on a train going West,
    will, as soon as he finds out his mistake, get off at the next station, and take a train that goes East. In like
    manner, a person who walked on a road that he, in his inculpable ignorance, believed was the true road
    to heaven, must leave that road, as soon as he finds out his mistake, and inquire for the true road to
    heaven. God, in his infinite mercy, will not fail to make him find out, in due time, the true road to heav-
    en, if he corresponds to his grace. Hence we asked the following question in our Familiar Explanation:
    ―What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault
    of theirs, and who never had any opportunity to know better?
    To this question we give the following answer: ―Their inculpable (invincible) ignorance will not save
    them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in his infinite mercy, will furnish them
    with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the
    Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.‖ (St. Thomas Aquinas.)
    S. O. remarks about this answer, ―that the author is not theologically correct, for no one will ever be
    punished through, by, or because of inculpable ignorance.‖ In these words, S. O. impudently imputes to
    us what we never have asserted, namely, that a man will be damned on account of his inculpable ignorance..From the fact that a person tries to live up to the dictates of his conscience, and cannot sin
    against the true religion on account of being invincibly ignorant of it, many have drawn the false conclu-
    sion that such a person is saved, or, in other words, is in the state of sanctifying grace, making thus invincible ignorance a means of salvation. This conclusion is contralatius hos quam praemissae.‖ To
    give an example. The Rev. Nicholas Russo, S. J., professor of philosophy in Boston College, says in his
    book, The true Religion and its dogmas:--
    ―This good faith being supposed, we say that such a Christian (he means a baptized Protestant) is in a
    way a member of the Catholic Church. Ignorance alone is the cause of his not acknowledging the au-
    thority of his true mother. The Catholic Church does not look upon him as wholly a stranger; she calls
    him her child; she presses him to her maternal heart; through other hands she prepares him to shine in
    the kingdom of heaven. Yes, the profession of a creed different from the true one will not, of itself, bar
    the gates of heaven before this Christian; invincible ignorance will, before the tribunal of the just God, ensure the pardon of his errors against faith; and, if nothing else be wanting, heaven will be, his home
    for eternity.‖ We have already sufficiently refuted these false assertions, and we have quoted them, not
    for the purpose of refuting them, but for the purpose of denying emphatically what follows after these
    false assertions, namely: ―This is the doctrine held by almost all theologians, and has received the sanc-
    tion of our late Pope Pius IX.. In his Allocution of December 9, 1854, we read the following words: ―It
    is indeed of faith that no one can be saved outside the Apostolic Roman Church; that this Church is the
    one ark of salvation; that he who has not entered it will perish in the deluge. But, on the other hand, it is
    equally certain that, were a man to be invincibly ignorant of the true religion, he would not be held
    guilty in the sight of God for not professing it.‖
    Now, in which of these words of Pope Pius IX. is any of the above false assertions of the Rev. N. Rus-
    so, S. J., sanctioned? In which words does Pius IX. say that a Protestant in good faith is in a way a
    member of the Catholic Church? Does not Pius IX. teach quite the contrary in the following words,
    which the Rev. N. Russo, S. J., quotes pp. 163-166?
    ―Now, whoever will carefully examine and reflect upon the condition of the various religious socie-
    ties, divided among themselves, and separated from the Catholic Church--which, from the days of Our
    Lord Jesus Christ and his Apostles, has ever exercised, by its lawful pastors, and still does exercise, the
    divine power committed to it by this same Lord--will easily satisfy himself that none of these societies,
    singly nor all together, are in any way or form that one Catholic Church which our Lord founded and
    built, and which he chose should be; and that he cannot by any means say that these societies are mem-
    bers or parts of that Church, since they are visibly separated from Catholic unity………
    ―Let all those, then, who do not profess the unity and truth of the Catholic Church, avail themselves of
    the opportunity of this (Vatican) Council, in which the Catholic Church, to which their forefathers be-
    longed, affords a new proof of her close unity and her invincible vitality, and let them satisfy the long-
    ings of their hearts, and liberate themselves from that state in which they cannot have any assurance of
    their own salvation. Let them unceasingly offer fervent prayers to the God of Mercy, that he will throw
    down the wall of separation, that he will scatter the darkness of error, and that he will lead them back to
    the Holy Mother Church, in whose bosom their fathers found the salutary pastures of life, in whom
    alone the whole doctrine of Jesus Christ is preserved and handed down, and the mysteries of heavenly
    grace dispensed.‖
    Now does not Pius IX. say in these words, very plainly and distinctly, that the members of all other re-
    ligious societies are visibly separated from Catholic unity; that in this state of separation they cannot
    have salvation; that by fervent prayer, they should beseech God to throw down the wall of separation, to
    scatter the darkness of error, and lead them to the Mother Church, in which alone salvation is found.‖
    And in his Allocution to the Cardinals held Dec. 17, 1847, Pius IX. says: ―Let those, therefore, who wish
    to be saved, come to the pillar and the ground of faith, which is the Church; let them come to the true
    Church of Christ, which, in her Bishops, and in the Roman Pontiff, the Chief Head of all, has the succes-
    sion of apostolical Authority, which has never been interrupted, which has never counted anything of
    greater importance than to preach, and by all means to keep, and defend the doctrine proclaimed by the
    Apostles at Christ's command . . . . . . We shall never at any time abstain from any cares or labors that,
    by the grace of Christ himself, we may bring those who are ignorant, and who are going astray, to THIS
    ONLY ROAD OF TRUTH AND SALVATION.‖ Now does not Pius IX. teach most clearly in these
    words that the ignorant cannot be saved by their ignorance, but that, in order to be saved, they must
    come to the only road of truth and salvation, which is the Roman Catholic Church?
    Again, does not Pius IX. most emphatically declare, in the words quoted above by the Rev. N. Russo,
    S. J., that ―It is indeed of faith, that NO ONE can be saved out of the Apostolic Roman Church?‖ How,
    then, we ask, can the Rev. N. Russo, S. J. say in truth, that a Protestant in good faith, such as he de-
    scribed, is in a way a member of the Catholic Church? that the Catholic Church does not look upon him
    as wholly a stranger? that she calls him her child, presses him to her maternal heart, prepares him,
    through other hands, to shine in the kingdom of God? that the profession of a creed different from the
    true one will not, of itself, bar the gates of heaven before this Christian, etc.? How can this professor of philosophy at the Boston College assert all this, whilst Pius IX. teaches the very contrary? And mark
    especially the scandalous assertion of the Rev. N. Russo, S. J., namely: ―This our opinion is the doctrine
    which has received the sanction of our late Pope Pius IX.‖ To prove his scandalous assertion, he quotes
    the following words of Pius IX: ―It is equally certain that, were a man to be invincibly ignorant of the
    true religion, he would not be held guilty in the sight of God for not professing it.‖ If, in these words,
    Pius IX. says what no one calls in question, that invincible ignorance of the true religion excuses a
    Protestant from the sin of heresy, does Pius IX. thereby teach that such invincibly ignorance saves such
    a Protestant? Does he teach that invincible ignorance supplies all that is necessary for salvation--all that
    you can have only in the true faith? How could the Professor of philosophy at the Jesuit College in Bos-
    ton draw such a false and scandalous conclusion from premises in which it is not contained? Pius IX.
    has, on many occasions, condemned such liberal opinions. Read his Allocution to the Cardinals, held
    Dec. 17, 1847, in which he expresses his indignation against all those who had said that he had sanc-
    tioned such perverse opinions. ―In our times,‖ says he, ―many of the enemies of the Catholic Faith direct
    their efforts towards placing every monstrous opinion on the same level with the doctrine of Christ, or
    confounding it therewith; and so they try more and more to propagate that impious system of the indif-
    ference of religions. But quite recently -- we shudder to say it, certain men have not hesitated to slander
    us by saying that we share in their folly, favor that most wicked system, and think so benevolently of
    every class of mankind as to suppose that not only the sons of the Church, but that the rest also, however
    alienated from Catholic unity they may remain, are alike in the way of salvation, and may arrive at ever-
    lasting life. We are at a loss from horror, to find words to express our detestation of this new and atro-
    cious injustice that is done to us.‖
    Mark well, Pius IX. uttered these solemn words against ―certain men,‖ whom he calls the enemies of
    the Catholic Faith,--he means liberal minded Catholics and priests, as is evident from other Allocutions,
    in which he says that he has condemned not less than forty times their perverse opinions about religion.
    Is it not, for instance, a perverse and monstrous opinion, when the Rev. N. Russo, S. J., says: ―The spir-
    itual element (of the Church) comprises all the graces and virtues that are the foundation of the spiritual
    life; it includes the gifts of the Holy Ghost; in other words, it is what theologians call the soul of the
    Church. (Now follows the monstrous opinion) This mysterious soul is not limited by the bounds of the
    exterior organization (of the Church); it can go far beyond; exist even in the midst of schism and heresy
    unconsciously professed, and bind to our Lord hearts that are connected by no exterior ties with the visi-
    ble Body of the Church. This union with the soul of the Church is essential to salvation; so essential that
    without it none can be saved. But the necessity of belonging likewise to the Body of the Church, though
    a real one, may in certain cases offer no obstacle to salvation. This happens whenever invincible igno-
    rance so shrouds a man's intellectual vision, that he ceases to be responsible before God for the light
    which he does not see‖? The refutation of this monstrous opinion is sufficiently given in all we have said
    before. The very Allocution of Pius IX., from which the Rev. N. Russo quotes, is a direct condemnation
    of such monstrous opinions. (See Preface) Now these modern would-be theologians are not ashamed to assure us most solemnly that their opin-
    ions are the doctrine held by almost all theologians, and yet they cannot quote one proof from Holy
    Scripture, or from the writings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, to give the least support to their
    opinions. The Rev. N. Russo and S. O. seem not to see the difference between saying: Inculpable ignorance will not save a man, and inculpable ignorance will not damn a man. Each assertion is correct, and yet there is a great difference between the two. It will be an act of charity to enlighten them on the point in question. Inculpable or invincible ignorance has never been and will never be a means of salvation. To be saved, it is necessary to be justified, or to be in the state of sanctifying grace. In order to obtain sanctifying grace, it is necessary to have the proper dispositions for justification; that is, true divine faith in at least the necessary truths of salvation, confident hope in the divine Saviour, sincere sorrow for sin, together with the firm purpose of doing all that God has commanded, etc. Now, these supernatural acts of faith, hope, charity, contrition, etc., which prepare the soul for receiving sanctifying grace, can never be supplied by invincible ignorance; and if invincible ignorance cannot supply the preparation for receiving sanctifying grace, much less can it bestow sanctifying grace itself. ―Invincible ignorance,‖ says St. Thomas Aquinas, ―is a punishment for sin.‖ (De Infid. q. x., art. 1.) It is, then, a curse, but not a blessing or a means of salvation.But if we say that inculpable ignorance cannot save a man, we thereby do not say that invincible ignorance damns a man. Far from it. To say, invincible ignorance is no means of salvation, is one thing; and to say, invincible ignorance is the cause of damnation is another. To maintain the latter, would be wrong, for inculpable ignorance of the fundamental principles of faith excuses a heathen from the sin of
    infidelity, and a Protestant from the sin of heresy; because such invincible ignorance, being only a simple involuntary privation, is no sin.
    Hence Pius IX. said ―that, were a man to be invincibly ignorant of the true religion, such invincible ignorance would not be sinful before God; that, if such a person should observe the precepts of the Natural Law and do the will of God to the best of his knowledge, God, in his infinite mercy, may enlighten him so as to obtain eternal life; for, the Lord, who knows the heart and thoughts of man will, in his infinite goodness, not suffer any one to be lost forever without his own fault.‖
    Formatting is a bit weird so you can read it here if you'd like:

    https://www.jmjsite.com/r/catholicdogma.pdf
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #295 on: December 14, 2025, 04:13:03 PM »
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  • I haven't read Fr. Feeney's interpretation, so I wouldn't be able to say what it is :smirk:

    Here's Fr. Michael Müller, in the late-19th century:

    Formatting is a bit weird so you can read it here if you'd like:

    https://www.jmjsite.com/r/catholicdogma.pdf
    *Fr. Feeney's interpretation of Pius IX, that is. Not sure why you think Fr. Feeney would have a different "interpretation" of the Dogma than Pius IX...they both believed that there is no salvation outside the Church

    **And this is not Fr. Müllers "interpretation" of the Dogma, it is Fr. Müller correcting those who misinterpreted Pius IX
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #296 on: December 14, 2025, 04:30:01 PM »
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  • I haven't read Fr. Feeney's interpretation, so I wouldn't be able to say what it is :smirk:

    Here's Fr. Michael Müller, in the late-19th century:

    Formatting is a bit weird so you can read it here if you'd like:

    https://www.jmjsite.com/r/catholicdogma.pdf

    From what I can gather Fr. Muller is focused the views of Fr. Russo. Fr. Muller says,

    "Now, in which of these words of Pope Pius IX. is any of the above false assertions of the Rev. N. Rus-
    so, S. J., sanctioned? In which words does Pius IX. say that a Protestant in good faith is in a way a
    member of the Catholic Church? 

    I did not say anything about "a Protestant in good faith" being "a member of the Catholic Church." If you are trying to say that I endorse Russo's position, your are making a straw man argument against me.

    I never said the invincibly ignorant or inside the Church. They are, of logically necessity OUTSIDE the Church, because they are invincibly ignorant of it. If they know of the Church, and they fail to understand what it teaches and remain Protestant, that person is VINCIBLY and CULPABLY Ignorant.


    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #297 on: December 14, 2025, 04:32:37 PM »
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  • Quote
    You see, dearly beloved sons and venerable brothers, how much vigilance is needed to keep the disease of this terrible evil from infecting and killing your flocks. Do not cease to diligently defend your people against these pernicious errors. Saturate them with the doctrine of Catholic truth more accurately each day. Teach them that just as there is only one God, one Christ, one Holy Spirit, so there is also only one truth which is divinely revealed. There is only one divine faith which is the beginning of salvation for mankind and the basis of all justification, the faith by which the just person lives and without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the community of His children. There is only one true, holy, Catholic church, which is the Apostolic Roman Church. There is only one See founded in Peter by the word of the Lord, outside of which we cannot find either true faith or eternal salvation. He who does not have the Church for a mother cannot have God for a father, and whoever abandons the See of Peter on which the Church is established trusts falsely that he is in the Church

    ...

    Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control

    PPIX, Singulari Quidem


    Hmm..we cannot find the faith or salvation outside the Church..but the Invincibly Ignorant, who are outside of the Church (which, remember, Pius IX just said that you cannot find salvation outside of), can hope for salvation.

    Does Pius IX say that they can find salvation outside of the Church? Or, as there is no salvation outside of the Church, is he saying that they will be able to enter the Church? :incense:
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #298 on: December 14, 2025, 04:36:34 PM »
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  • From what I can gather Fr. Muller is focused the views of Fr. Russo. Fr. Muller says,

    "Now, in which of these words of Pope Pius IX. is any of the above false assertions of the Rev. N. Rus-
    so, S. J., sanctioned? In which words does Pius IX. say that a Protestant in good faith is in a way a
    member of the Catholic Church?

    I did not say anything about "a Protestant in good faith" being "a member of the Catholic Church." If you are trying to say that I endorse Russo's position, your are making a straw man argument against me.

    I never said the invincibly ignorant or inside the Church. They are, of logically necessity OUTSIDE the Church, because they are invincibly ignorant of it. If they know of the Church, and they fail to understand what it teaches and remain Protestant, that person is VINCIBLY and CULPABLY Ignorant.
    Fr. Russo was just one of many heretics who denied EENS. What Fr. Müller is saying doesn't just apply to him only. Just read the whole chapter, the next, and actually the whole book as well
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #299 on: December 14, 2025, 05:04:57 PM »
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  • Fr. Russo was just one of many heretics who denied EENS. What Fr. Müller is saying doesn't just apply to him only. Just read the whole chapter, the next, and actually the whole book as well

    Rather than telling me to read the whole book. Why don't you find the specific parts that apply to or contradict my position? You act as if you are familiar enough with its argument to suggest that it applies to me.