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Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 53568 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #255 on: December 12, 2025, 11:10:18 PM »
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  • The New Heaven and New Earth is the end of the story for the non-reprobate. This is after the disembodied souls enter the beatific vision. This is when those disembodied souls are united with their glorified bodies at the General Judgement.

    And The New Heaven and New Earth occurs when Heaven comes down and merges with Earth. Apocalypse 21:

    1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more.  2 And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  3 And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people; and God himself with them shall be their God.  4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away.  5 And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new.

    This is right after the General Judgement. After the GJ, the people in "Limbo" (or whatever you want to call it) will enter the NHNE as well. They do not go to eternal Hell. And there are only two abodes after the GJ: the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Satan.
    Limbo is the upper, upper part of hell, because the main punishment of hell is loss of God, which the ignorant lose.  There is ZERO chance the ignorant go to heaven.  There is ZERO chance anyone in heaven won’t see God. 

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #256 on: December 13, 2025, 08:53:37 AM »
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  • Limbo is the upper, upper part of hell, because the main punishment of hell is loss of God, which the ignorant lose.  There is ZERO chance the ignorant go to heaven.  There is ZERO chance anyone in heaven won’t see God.

    The New Heaven and New Earth is not the same as the first Heaven and first Earth. All of this happens after the Second Coming. Again, Apocalypse 21:

     1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more.  2 And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  3 And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people; and God himself with them shall be their God.  4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away.  5 And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #257 on: December 13, 2025, 11:47:22 AM »
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  • New heaven/earth is all part of the heavenly reward.  Ignorant people go to Limbo, which is part of hell.  They will never see heaven, nor the new heaven, nor the new earth.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #258 on: December 13, 2025, 03:06:46 PM »
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  • Limbo is the upper, upper part of hell, because the main punishment of hell is loss of God, which the ignorant lose.  There is ZERO chance the ignorant go to heaven.  There is ZERO chance anyone in heaven won’t see God.

    OK, so here you completely trip yourself up.  Those in Limbo are NOT PUNISHED, and those in Limbo HAVE NOT LOST GOD simpliciter.  They do not receive the Beatific Vision, which is a free gift of God, which our created nature can't begin to comprehend, as it's beyond the capacity of our nature, but in no way is deprivation of the Beatific Vision a punishment  This is what St. Thomas articulated regarding Limbo, and it's also what Pope Pius IX was talking about in terms of how God will not permit those who have not committed actual sin to be punished.  St. Gregory nαzιanzen, in those passage you should know quite well, since it's where he rejects Baptism of Desire, talks about how there are those who are not bad enough to be punished, but not good enough to be glorified, glorification being the elevation of our nature to where we can see God face to face.

    Hell is where the enemies of God go, the reprobate, but the infants in Limbo are not reprobate, are not being punished, are perfectly happy, are not in any enmity with God, and they undoubtedly interract with the saints who are in fact able to behold the Beatific Vision, something which the damned would not and cannot do.

    You're stuck in the very same binary mindset of how there's only Heaven (with the Beatific Vision) or else Hell (with punishments), and it's why St. Augustine concluded that infants who die without Baptism are punished ... although just a little bit, on account of their loss of God.  St. Thomas helped overturn this binary thinking and articulated the distinction between the supernatural elevation of Heaven, and the natural reward vs. punishment.

    So, unhappiness and suffering are the results of being deprived of a due good.  But because human nature does not even have a capacity to see God face to face and enjoy the Beatific Vision, the simple lack of the Beatific Vision along cannot cause suffering.  By way of analogy, a squirrel does not suffer because it lacks the capability of speech, and that's because it has no clue even what that is, and its nature was not designed in such a way that the squirrel's perfection requires the faculty of speech, and therefore the lack of something that it hasn't even got the capacity for cannot cause suffering.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #259 on: December 13, 2025, 04:52:14 PM »
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  • OK, so here you completely trip yourself up.  Those in Limbo are NOT PUNISHED, and those in Limbo HAVE NOT LOST GOD simpliciter.  They do not receive the Beatific Vision, which is a free gift of God, which our created nature can't begin to comprehend, as it's beyond the capacity of our nature, but in no way is deprivation of the Beatific Vision a punishment  This is what St. Thomas articulated regarding Limbo, and it's also what Pope Pius IX was talking about in terms of how God will not permit those who have not committed actual sin to be punished.  St. Gregory nαzιanzen, in those passage you should know quite well, since it's where he rejects Baptism of Desire, talks about how there are those who are not bad enough to be punished, but not good enough to be glorified, glorification being the elevation of our nature to where we can see God face to face.

    Hell is where the enemies of God go, the reprobate, but the infants in Limbo are not reprobate, are not being punished, are perfectly happy, are not in any enmity with God, and they undoubtedly interract with the saints who are in fact able to behold the Beatific Vision, something which the damned would not and cannot do.

    You're stuck in the very same binary mindset of how there's only Heaven (with the Beatific Vision) or else Hell (with punishments), and it's why St. Augustine concluded that infants who die without Baptism are punished ... although just a little bit, on account of their loss of God.  St. Thomas helped overturn this binary thinking and articulated the distinction between the supernatural elevation of Heaven, and the natural reward vs. punishment.

    So, unhappiness and suffering are the results of being deprived of a due good.  But because human nature does not even have a capacity to see God face to face and enjoy the Beatific Vision, the simple lack of the Beatific Vision along cannot cause suffering.  By way of analogy, a squirrel does not suffer because it lacks the capability of speech, and that's because it has no clue even what that is, and its nature was not designed in such a way that the squirrel's perfection requires the faculty of speech, and therefore the lack of something that it hasn't even got the capacity for cannot cause suffering.
    But scripture says the tree either falls to the North or to the South (heaven or hell).


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #260 on: December 13, 2025, 04:54:20 PM »
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  • Other saints have said similar things.  It’s how you look at it.  Yes, the loss of God is a punishment.  No, it won’t cause suffering.  If you want to argue that a punishment with no suffering isn’t a punishment, then ok.  It’s kind of semantics. 

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #261 on: December 13, 2025, 05:28:06 PM »
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  • The Inviolable Necessity of the Church, Sacraments, and the Resolution of Eschatological Conflicts


    Abstract

    This monograph presents a comprehensive theological model reconciling the rigorous Dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus (EENS) with the necessity of God's universal mercy. The conflict is resolved by establishing a distinction between the two forms of salvation—Perfection (the Beatific Vision, BV) and Eternal Life (the New Heaven and New Earth, NHNE). The model argues that the Invincibly Ignorant (II) are barred from the immediate Beatific Vision by the persistence of Original Sin (OS), which only the Sacrament of Baptism (or its explicit desire) can remit. This interpretation defends the unique power of the Sacramental order and establishes a necessary spiritual economy consistent with Christ's establishment of the Church as the sole guaranteed path to the highest reward.


    Definitions

    EntityDefinition and Magisterial BasisRole in Monograph
    Invincibly Ignorant (II)Persons who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the true religion (the Catholic Church) and the Gospel of Christ, but who strive to live a good and upright life, observing the precepts of the natural law and cooperating with God's grace (Quo Conficiamur Moerore, Pius IX, 1863).Granted “eternal life” in NHNE, but are still burdened with Original Sin (OS).
    Baptism of Desire (BoD) / Explicit VotumA state achieved by those who, without having received the Sacrament of Baptism, die after having conceived a sincere and explicit desire for the Sacrament, combined with perfect contrition or love of God (charity). This desire is sacramentally efficacious, conferring the grace and effect of the physical Sacrament, including the remission of Original Sin (Council of Trent).Fully cleansed of Original Sin; granted full potential for the Beatific Vision (BV).
    Beatific Vision / PerfectionThe immediate and intuitive vision of God's essence face-to-face, enjoyed by the souls of the just in Heaven. It is the highest supernatural reward and the intermediate state achieved after purification (Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus).Strict Salvation (The Beatific Vision, the goal of Christ's desire).
    New Heaven and New Earth (NHNE) / Eternal LifeThe ultimate, final, and eternal destiny of those destined for “eternal life,” realized after the General Judgment and the resurrection of the body. It signifies the complete and definitive establishment of God's Kingdom (Revelation 21:1-5).Broad Salvation (The escape from Hell for all righteous people).


    I. The Foundational Conflict and Dogmatic Principles


    A. The Tension: Rigor vs. Mercy

    The problem is the apparent contradiction between two divine truths:

    Dogmatic Necessity (EENS): Affirmed by Popes and Councils, salvation is objectively found only within the Church.

    Moral Impossibility: God, being perfectly just (Romans 2:11), cannot condemn the Invincibly Ignorant (II).


    B. The Magisterial Resolution and Semantic Definition

    The Magisterium resolved the moral impossibility by assuring “salvation or eternal life” for the Invincibly Ignorant, but this requires defining the two separate meanings of the word “salvation” in two different contexts:

    ContextMagisterial TermGoalBiblical PrecedentNecessity of the Church
    Broad/MercifulEternal Life (Aeternam Vitam, Pius IX)Escape from Hell; guaranteed entry into the New Heaven and New Earth (NHNE)."If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."Necessary for Safety (Protection from sin).
    Strict/DogmaticPerfection (Implicit in EENS)Immediate, unhindered Beatific Vision (BV)."If you wish to be perfect, go... and come, follow me."Necessary for Perfection (The highest, immediate reward).


    C. The Scope of Divine Desire

    When Christ states that he desires all men to be saved (cf. 1 Timothy 2:4), His will must be understood in the context of His perfect goodness (Voluntas Beneplaciti).

    Conclusion: Christ's desire is for the maximum possible union and glory for every soul, which corresponds precisely to the Strict/Dogmatic sense (Perfection/Beatific Vision).

    • Justification: God desires that all men avoid all punishment and deprivation of His presence. The fact that outcomes fall short of this desire (resulting in Limbo, Purgatory, or Hell) is due to human free will and the failure to cooperate fully with the means of grace, not a limitation in God’s desire for the ultimate good of His children.


    D. The Doctrinal Defense: Trent's Limited Scope

    The strongest theological challenge—that the grace of votum implicitum must remit Original Sin—is negated by the historical timeline. The Council of Trent (which defined the unity of justification) did not address the post-Pius IX (1863) category of the Invincibly Ignorant. The grace provided to the Invincibly Ignorant is a unique, exceptional mode of imperfect justification operating outside the ordinary sacramental economy defined at Trent.


    II. The Doctrine of the Sacramental Impediment

    The core of this model is the assertion that Original Sin (OS), unremitted, acts as an absolute bar to the intermediate state of the Beatific Vision, even if the soul is otherwise justified.

    A. The Two Forms of Votum and Original Sin Remission

    Type of GraceRecipientStatus Regarding OSCapacity for Immediate BV
    Sacrament / Explicit Votum(BoD)Fully BaptizedOriginal Sin RemittedYes (Full Supernatural Capacity)
    Implicit VotumInvincibly Ignorant (II)Original Sin NOT RemittedNo (Lacks Sacramental Cleansing)

    B. The Eschatological Trajectory of the Saved

    All souls who die in a state of grace are destined for the NHNE after the General Judgment (GJ). The intermediate state depends solely on the remission of Original Sin and personal debt.

    CategoryImmediate State (After Death)Final Destiny (After General Judgment)Bar to Immediate BV?
    Baptized Catholic (Includes BoD)Purgatory > Beatific VisionNHNEOnly temporal debt (if applicable).
    Complex Invincibly Ignorant Follower (With personal sin/debt)Purgatory > LimboNHNEPersistence of Original Sin.
    Simple Invincibly Ignorant Follower / Unbaptized InfantsLimbo (Immediate)NHNEPersistence of Original Sin.

    C. The Analogy of the Impediment (Limbus Patrum)

    The Invincibly Ignorant’s relegation to Limbo is not a penalty but a necessary consequence rooted in Salvation History. The Fathers were fully justified but barred from the Beatific Vision due to the objective impediment of un-remitted Original Sin. The Invincibly Ignorant are similarly barred until the final, ordained means (the Second Coming/General Judgment) ushers them into the NHNE, demonstrating that God's grace operates through an ordered economy.


    III. Defense Against Remaining Challenges and Necessity of the Church


    A. Challenge: The Inconsistency of Purgatory’s Efficacy

    Defense: Purgatory's function is limited to temporal debt for personal sins. It has no power over Original Sin. The Invincibly Ignorant soul is not unjustly penalized; it is simply not fully purified for the Beatific Vision because the unique means of Original Sin remission (Baptism) was lacking.


    B. The Necessity of the Church: Spiritual Survival

    The Dogma of EENS is ultimately a pastoral truth concerning spiritual survival, asserting that the Church is necessary not just for perfection, but for the high probability of reaching the Kingdom at all.


    The Extreme Danger of Original Sin: The Invincibly Ignorant, still burdened with Original Sin, remain subject to the full power of concupiscence and exposed to the malice of Satan.

    • Conclusion: The Church is necessary because it is the only guaranteed path to remove the barrier of Original Sin, ensure the highest intermediate reward (Beatific Vision), and provide the essential graces that protect the soul from the mortal sin that leads to eternal damnation.





    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #262 on: December 13, 2025, 05:54:29 PM »
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  • This is interesting, and I suppose we are free to speculate about NHNE (within reason)

    However, something that immediately comes to mind is that that these infants, and the "invincibly ignorant", still have Original Sin. This synopsis gives no reason as to why or how Original Sin will be able to be present in NHNE. 






    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #263 on: December 13, 2025, 05:59:37 PM »
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  • This is interesting, and I suppose we are free to speculate about NHNE (within reason)

    However, something that immediately comes to mind is that that these infants, and the "invincibly ignorant", still have Original Sin. This synopsis gives no reason as to why or how Original Sin will be able to be present in NHNE.

    This part is the part (an argument by analogy) is intended to answer that challenge:


    C. The Analogy of the Impediment (Limbus Patrum)

    The Invincibly Ignorant’s relegation to Limbo is not a penalty but a necessary consequence rooted in Salvation History. The Fathers were fully justified but barred from the Beatific Vision due to the objective impediment of un-remitted Original Sin. The Invincibly Ignorant are similarly barred until the final, ordained means (the Second Coming/General Judgment) ushers them into the NHNE, demonstrating that God's grace operates through an ordered economy.


    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #264 on: December 13, 2025, 06:18:06 PM »
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  • Right, but as Original Sin is an impediment to the Beatific Vision, and as we know that the Old Testament Just now enjoy the Beatific Vision, it obviously follows that they were delivered from that state of sin by Our Lord's Passion. That is why they could only enter Heaven after It had occurred

    So the synopsis is implying that the infants who die in original sin, and those invincibly ignorant, will have Original Sin remitted at the General Judgement?
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #265 on: December 13, 2025, 07:51:24 PM »
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  • Right, but as Original Sin is an impediment to the Beatific Vision, and as we know that the Old Testament Just now enjoy the Beatific Vision, it obviously follows that they were delivered from that state of sin by Our Lord's Passion. That is why they could only enter Heaven after It had occurred

    So the synopsis is implying that the infants who die in original sin, and those invincibly ignorant, will have Original Sin remitted at the General Judgement?

    Christ's sacrificial death on the Cross effected the full remission of Original Sin, thereby opening the gates of Heaven.

    His soul, united to the Divinity, then descended to the Fathers in the Limbus Patrum to illuminate them with the light of glory and, following His Resurrection, led them bodily into the Beatific Vision.

    From Gemini AI:

    A similar thing will happen with the Invincibly Ignorant at the Second Coming.

    The General Judgment and the Resurrection of the Dead will be the culmination of the final redemptive act that removes the last impediment for the Invincibly Ignorant.

    The biblical theme—the breaking open of the graves at the Second Coming—is best captured by several New Testament passages that speak directly to the General Resurrection.

    The most direct and powerful quote often cited regarding the breaking open of the graves and the calling forth of the dead is from the Gospel of John:

    Quote
    "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."


    John 5:28–29

    Other Key Passages on the General Resurrection:


    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: This passage focuses on the timing of the resurrection in relation to the Second Coming (the Parousia), particularly for those who have died "in Christ."

    Quote
    "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

    • 1 Corinthians 15:52: This highlights the speed and finality of the transformation at the last trumpet.

    Quote
    "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."



    The Theological Parallel

    EventImpediment RemovedAgent of ReleaseReleased To
    Christ's Descent (Limbus Patrum)Original Sin (Effected by the Cross)The Risen ChristBeatific Vision
    Second Coming (II Limbo)The Spiritual and Physical SeparationThe Voice of ChristNew Heaven and New Earth


    The Voice of Christ that breaks open the graves at the Second Coming is the final, definitive act that releases the II from their temporary Limbo state and integrates their resurrected bodies into the final, eternal Kingdom of the New Heaven and New Earth.



    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #266 on: December 13, 2025, 08:21:04 PM »
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  • So will the infants and those invincibly ignorant who die with Original Sin on their souls be able to enter NHNE with Original Sin, or will those with the guilt of Original Sin on their souls be remitted of it at Christ's Second Coming 
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #267 on: December 13, 2025, 08:27:06 PM »
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  • So will the infants and those invincibly ignorant who die with Original Sin on their souls be able to enter NHNE with Original Sin, or will those with the guilt of Original Sin on their souls be remitted of it at Christ's Second Coming

    I am speculating of course. But I think that the souls tainted with Original Sin would be made "new" when the NHNE is created.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #268 on: December 13, 2025, 08:39:51 PM »
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  • I am speculating of course. But I think that the souls tainted with Original Sin would be made "new" when the NHNE is created.
    So infants who die with Original Sin and any Invincibly Ignorant who are in limbo will have Original Sin remitted from their souls?
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #269 on: December 13, 2025, 08:41:58 PM »
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  • This is just BS and a denial of the necessity of baptism and of the Chruch.  It sounds like some new-age, Protestant fairy tale where all the “good” people that died outside the Chruch will get a pass and have the same reward as Catholics.  

    If you want to argue that those in limbo eventually go to the New Earth, then that’s plausible.  But they would NOT enter the new heaven.  Nor would their original sin be remitted somehow.  That’s heresy. 

    For the 53rd time, you comparing Moses to an invincibly ignorant native is blasphemy.  Moses followed the Old Law; the native Indian followed the natural law, only.  Moses was circuмcised.  Moses believed in the redeemer.  The ONLY THING Moses lacked was baptism, which he received in Limbo.  The native Indian believed in no God, or one that was general.  He had no religion.  He worshipped God in no significant religious way.  The 2 are INCOMPARABLE.