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Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 121084 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #240 on: December 12, 2025, 05:13:31 PM »
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  • You mental model is all wrong.  You think the exception makes excuses for people who could do something about their "ignorance" and overcome it. That is not what Invincibility means.

    Let me ask you, what if you were a child living in some remote area of Tibet in the Himalayas. Your parents were Buddhists. No Catholic priest or missionary had ever been to your village. No one had ever heard of the Catholic Church. Then you, the child, dies as the age of ten years old (above the age of reason). Prior to your death, you never violated any of the moral precepts of the Natural Law, and you sought to do the divine will as best you were taught by the Buddhists around you.

    Where do you think you would end up after death? Do you think you would burn in Hell for eternity even though you committed no faults?
    :laugh1:  Ok, now you're switching up the argument because your previous argument failed.  In your example above, the 10 year old, who was of good-will, would be "enlightened by divine light", no?  That's what the pope says.  That's what you said.

    And if they are enlightened by divine light, then they would be enlightened to the FULL divine law (i.e. commandments 1-3).  That's what the pope says.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #241 on: December 12, 2025, 05:25:55 PM »
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  • :laugh1:  Ok, now you're switching up the argument because your previous argument failed.  In your example above, the 10 year old, who was of good-will, would be "enlightened by divine light", no?  That's what the pope says.  That's what you said.

    And if they are enlightened by divine light, then they would be enlightened to the FULL divine law (i.e. commandments 1-3).  That's what the pope says.

    I haven't switched up anything. No, the enlightenment that the child would get would be less clear on how to worship God than is found in the first 3 precepts of the Decalogue. 

    For example, the child being a Buddhist would not know that there is only one God who created all things. And he would not know anything about the holiness of the Sabbath. That is a concept foreign to their language and cultural context.

    They are given divine light in order to continue to keep the natural law precepts so long as they cooperate with divine grace. They are not given some private revelation about keeping the Sabbath holy. No, Pius IX is not saying anything like that.


    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #242 on: December 12, 2025, 05:42:52 PM »
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  • Heretics will attempt to say that this...
    Quote
    Faith orders Us to hold that out of the Apostolic Roman Church no person can be saved, that it is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever will not enter therein shall perish in the waters of the deluge
    ...does not mean exactly what is says. That "No person can be saved" does not actually mean "no person can be saved"


    They will then attempt to say that this...
    Quote
    On the other hand it is necessary to hold for certain that ignorance of the true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, is not a fault in the eyes of God. But who will presume to arrogate to himself the right to mark the limits of such an ignorance, holding in account the various conditions of peoples, of countries, of minds, and of the infinite multiplicity of human things?
    ...means that a person may be "saved", if their ignorance is invincible. For some reason, they believe that ignorance of what is necessary for salvation is somehow meritorious. Pius IX teaches that they will not be punished for not doing what they do not know. What Pius IX rightly does not say is that they will be rewarded for not doing what they do not know



    The heretic also ignores this part...
    Quote
    let us hold firmly that which the Catholic doctrine teaches us, that there is only one God, one Faith, one Baptism; to seek to penetrate further is not permitted."
    ...and posits that those "invincibly ignorant" may be saved in their ignorance. In other words, he "[seeks] to penetrate further"


    The heretic attempts to say that when Pius IX taught this, he did not mean exactly what he said...
    Quote
    "The Church clearly declares that the only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian faith, which teaches the truth, scatters the darkness of ignorance by the splendor of its light, and works through love. This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God.
    ...because if we were to believe what the heretic claims, which is that, immediately after Pius IX taught that the "only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian faith", he also teaches that the invincibly ignorant can attain salvation in their invincible ignorance, then Pius IX would be contradicting himself:
    Quote
    Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control."
    Of course, Pius IX doesn't contradict himself. If what Pius IX said immediately prior to this is true, which it is, we take this to mean that the "hope" that the invincibly ignorant can have for salvation is only through the Christian Faith. As the "invincibly ignorant" do not know the Christian Faith, we must take this to mean that they will come to know the Christian Faith at some point in their life..because as Pius IX literally just said, the "only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian Faith".



    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #243 on: December 12, 2025, 05:49:48 PM »
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  • They are given divine light in order to continue to keep the natural law precepts so long as they cooperate with divine grace.
    We keep going around in circles.

    So you're saying that "divine light" is meaningless.  It adds nothing.  All it does is confirm the natural law, which the person already knows.

    I asked this before and you said, "No, divine light gives one information about Divine Law, which includes commandments 1-3."

    Now you're saying that "divine light" doesn't give info about Divine Law.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #244 on: December 12, 2025, 05:53:42 PM »
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  • Heretics will attempt to say that this......does not mean exactly what is says. That "No person can be saved" does not actually mean "no person can be saved"


    They will then attempt to say that this......means that a person may be "saved", if their ignorance is invincible. For some reason, they believe that ignorance of what is necessary for salvation is somehow meritorious. Pius IX teaches that they will not be punished for not doing what they do not know. What Pius IX rightly does not say is that they will be rewarded for not doing what they do not know



    The heretic also ignores this part......and posits that those "invincibly ignorant" may be saved in their ignorance. In other words, he "[seeks] to penetrate further"


    The heretic attempts to say that when Pius IX taught this, he did not mean exactly what he said......because if we were to believe what the heretic claims, which is that, immediately after Pius IX taught that the "only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian faith", he also teaches that the invincibly ignorant can attain salvation in their invincible ignorance, then Pius IX would be contradicting himself:Of course, Pius IX doesn't contradict himself. If what Pius IX said immediately prior to this is true, which it is, we take this to mean that the "hope" that the invincibly ignorant can have for salvation is only through the Christian Faith. As the "invincibly ignorant" do not know the Christian Faith, we must take this to mean that they will come to know the Christian Faith at some point in their life..because as Pius IX literally just said, the "only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian Faith".

    Instead of trying (badly) to be your own theologian, why not just read what non-Modernist theologians after Pius IX and before 1960 taught? What makes you think you are wiser than the teachers authorized by the Roman Catholic Church? You might learn something if you approach it with an open mind.


    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #245 on: December 12, 2025, 06:06:52 PM »
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  • The heretic is not able to reconcile his heresy with what PPIX taught:

    Quote
    The Church clearly declares that the only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian faith
    ...
    Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.


    Q. What is the only hope of salvation for mankind?

    A. The Christian Faith

    Q. Can one outside the Church hope for salvation?

    A. No, unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control

    Q. Is he who is excused through ignorance beyond his control a part of mankind?

    A. Yes

    Q. What is the only hope of salvation for mankind, again?

    A. The Christian Faith

    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #246 on: December 12, 2025, 06:15:06 PM »
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  • The heretic is not able to reconcile his heresy with what PPIX taught:


    Q. What is the only hope of salvation for mankind?

    A. The Christian Faith

    Q. Can one outside the Church hope for salvation?

    A. No, unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control

    Q. Is he who is excused through ignorance beyond his control a part of mankind?

    A. Yes

    Q. What is the only hope of salvation for mankind, again?

    A. The Christian Faith

    So was Pius IX a heretic? Or was he contradicting himself intentionally? If not (and he certainly was not), why did he include these caveats when he discussed EENS?

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #247 on: December 12, 2025, 07:15:58 PM »
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  • So was Pius IX a heretic? Or was he contradicting himself intentionally? If not (and he certainly was not), why did he include these caveats when he discussed EENS?
    No, he was not a heretic and he did not contradict himself. That is what you unfathomably cannot seem to understand 

    He said:
    Quote
    The Church clearly declares that the only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian faith

    He then says:
    Quote
    Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.


    If those who are invincibly ignorant can hope for salvation, and the only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian Faith, then you just have to put two and two together. Their hope for salvation is in the Christian Faith!

    Quote
    2 Corinthians
     4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministration, according as we have obtained mercy, we faint not.
    4:2 But we renounce the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness nor adulterating the word of God: but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience, in the sight of God.
    4:3 And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost,
    4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.
    4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ our Lord: and ourselves your servants through Jesus.
    4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, in the face of Christ Jesus
    Quote
    Mark 16:15 And He said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature.
    16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.
    Quote
    Matthew 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
    28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

    God will provide the means for salvation (the Catholic faith and baptism) to those struggling with invincible ignorance! If they believe and are baptised they will be saved, if they do not believe they will be condemned 
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #248 on: December 12, 2025, 07:33:07 PM »
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  • No, he was not a heretic and he did not contradict himself. That is what you unfathomably cannot seem to understand

    He said:
    He then says:

    If those who are invincibly ignorant can hope for salvation, and the only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian Faith, then you just have to put two and two together. Their hope for salvation is in the Christian Faith!

    God will provide the means for salvation (the Catholic faith and baptism) to those struggling with invincible ignorance! If they believe and are baptised they will be saved, if they do not believe they will be condemned

    What? I just said in the previous post that "he certainly was not" a heretic nor did he contradict himself. I have been saying that for dozens of posts. You are the one worried about contradictions. 

    The perceived contradiction is resolved as I have already said. The dogma of EENS applies to people who are heretics and schismatics and others who are vincibly ignorant. The dogma is not intended for those who have never heard the Gospel. Those people are not culpable for being outside of a Church they have never heard of. And since they are not culpable, they will not be punished in Hell. But, presumably, they will also not see the beatific vision upon their death. 

    Finally, in order to fall into this very rare category of people you are so concerned about, the person would need to BOTH 1) sincerely observe the natural law (which includes seeking divine favor) AND 2) be, through no fault of their own, ignorant of the true religion until death. Only when these two requirements are met, would the person be absolved from punishment for dying "Outside of the Church."

    Why is this so hard for you to understand and accept?


    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #249 on: December 12, 2025, 08:19:45 PM »
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  • No, you are implying that PPIX being a heretic or contradicting himself is what I must believe in order to say what I am saying. PPIX taught that the Christian Faith is the only hope of salvation for mankind. He taught that the invincibly ignorant can hope for salvation. Therefore, their hope must lie in the Christian Faith. <- This is what you do not understand

    They will be afforded the means for salvation.
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #250 on: December 12, 2025, 08:41:40 PM »
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  • Singulari Quadam

    "Faith orders Us to hold that out of the Apostolic Roman Church no person can be saved, that it is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever will not enter therein shall perish in the waters of the deluge. On the other hand it is necessary to hold for certain that ignorance of the true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, is not a fault in the eyes of God. But who will presume to arrogate to himself the right to mark the limits of such an ignorance, holding in account the various conditions of peoples, of countries, of minds, and of the infinite multiplicity of human things? When delivered from the bonds of the body, we shall see God as He is, we will comprehend perfectly by what admirable and indissoluble bond the divine mercy and the divine justice are united; but as long as we are upon the earth, bent under the weight of this mortal mass which overloads the soul, let us hold firmly that which the Catholic doctrine teaches us, that there is only one God, one Faith, one Baptism; to seek to penetrate further is not permitted."


    Singulari Quidem

    "The Church clearly declares that the only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian faith, which teaches the truth, scatters the darkness of ignorance by the splendor of its light, and works through love. This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control."


    Quanto Conficiamur Moerore





    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #251 on: December 12, 2025, 09:01:55 PM »
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  • If you believe that people can die invincibly ignorant, fine..but I don't see how that can be reconciled with what Pius IX actually taught. If you believe that some may not suffer the pains of hell, but will experience some happiness similar to the infants in limbo, okay. But they are not "excluded" from EENS. The Church has always taught "Salvation" to be the Beatific Vision, Heaven. No one who dies outside the Church can experience that. 
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #252 on: December 12, 2025, 09:21:50 PM »
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  • If you believe that people can die invincibly ignorant, fine..but I don't see how that can be reconciled with what Pius IX actually taught. If you believe that some may not suffer the pains of hell, but will experience some happiness similar to the infants in limbo, okay. But they are not "excluded" from EENS. The Church has always taught "Salvation" to be the Beatific Vision, Heaven. No one who dies outside the Church can experience that.

    And I have said that I don't believe anyone who dies "outside of the Church" experiences the beatific vision. I think the beatific vision is reserved BOTH for those who die in a state of sanctifying grace without temporal debt AND for those who go to Purgatory first but enter the beatific vision after their temporal debt is paid in Purgatory.

    But you do realize that the beatific vision is not the end of the story for those souls, right?

    And, while I admit I am speculating, it seems most fitting that the souls of those "invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion" who "observe the natural law" guided by "the divine light and grace" would go to something like the Limbo of the Fathers for the just people of the OT. But again, I don't think that is the end of the story for those people either.

    The end of the story is the New Heaven and New Earth, which is a restoration and perfection of the original Paradise that was lost because of the sin of Adam and Eve. At that time of the NHNE, there will only be this new Paradise for all  the good people and Hell for all of the reprobate. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #253 on: December 12, 2025, 09:51:18 PM »
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  • The invincibly ignorant do not go to heaven, ever.  They don’t see God.  They don’t partake of the lot of the saints.  They go to limbo, forever.  End of their story. 

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #254 on: December 12, 2025, 10:18:07 PM »
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  • The invincibly ignorant do not go to heaven, ever.  They don’t see God.  They don’t partake of the lot of the saints.  They go to limbo, forever.  End of their story.

    The New Heaven and New Earth is the end of the story for the non-reprobate. This is after the disembodied souls enter the beatific vision. This is when those disembodied souls are united with their glorified bodies at the General Judgement.

    And The New Heaven and New Earth occurs when Heaven comes down and merges with Earth. Apocalypse 21:

    1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more.  2 And I John saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  3 And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people; and God himself with them shall be their God.  4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away.  5 And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new.

    This is right after the General Judgement. After the GJ, the people in "Limbo" (or whatever you want to call it) will enter the NHNE as well. They do not go to eternal Hell. And there are only two abodes after the GJ: the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Satan.