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Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 13026 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #195 on: December 11, 2025, 07:59:29 PM »
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  • Divine light and grace refers to baptism/the Catholic faith. The very same Pope has a another docuмent where he uses the same terminology and makes it more clear. You are choosing to interprete his words in a way that is contrary to Catholic teaching, this is modernism and uncharitable to the Pope.

    Oh, it's more than uncharitable to Pope Pope Pius IX ... it's downright slander and it makes him out to be a Pelagian.  We'll need to find the article (I forgot who wrote it it .... might even have been Fr. Feeney) where it docuмents the reaction of Pope Pius IX to these slanders.  To say that someone could be save MERELY due to lack of actual sin, that not being punished suffices for salvation ... THAT IS PELAGIAN HERESY.  Period.  Invincible ignorance and lack of actual sin are MERELY EXCULPATORY but CANNOT BE SALVIFIC.  In order for salvation to be possible, supernatural faith is required (dogmatically taught by Trent, so this interpretation is herestic on those grounds as well).  And that is where "divine light and grace" factor in.  What Pius IX is saying is not Pelagian heresy, but that God WILL provide His divine light and grace for salvation to those who are invincibly ignorant and who have committed no actual sin.  This is precisely what St. Thomas taught.  Pope Pius IX does not specific HOW God might provide the divine light and grace, whether by some interior illumination or, as St. Thomas taught, by sending an angel from Heaven to communicate those truths that must be explicitly believed for salvation, which St. Thomas held to be at minimum the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.  But the perinacious Pelagian heretic here (trying to smear Pope Pius IX with his own heresies) believes that ignorance and lack of actual sin can actually be salvific, that invincible ignorance can save ... and not a few Trad clergy have actually muttered this heretical absurdity.  That's tantamount to a denial of Original Sin, since the Church teaches that you cannot be saved even if you have Original Sin alone (without having committed actual sin), and again that you must have supernatural faith in order to be saved (dogmatically taught at Trent and many other places), and the minimum truths necessary to be believed explicitly in order to even make supernatural faith possible are the core mysteries regarding the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #196 on: December 11, 2025, 07:59:55 PM »
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  • 2Corinthians 4:3-4
    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Romans 10
    For the scripture saith: Whosoever believeth in him, shall not be confounded. 12 For there is no distinction of the Jew and the Greek: for the same is Lord over all, rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they be sent, as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things!

     But all do not obey the gospel. For Isaias saith: Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I say: Have they not heard? Yes, verily, their sound hath gone forth into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the whole world. 19 But I say: Hath not Israel known? First, Moses saith: I will provoke you to jealousy by that which is not a nation; by a foolish nation I will anger you.

    Romans 1
     For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice: 19 Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

    In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ 9 Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power: 
    [2 Thessalonians 1:8-9]


    Read very carefully. St Paul makes it very clear. There is no salvation without belief, and ignorance is no excuse. It was mentioned earlier that St Thomas said ignorance is a punishment for sin! The term invincible ignorance is a oxymoron, in practice there is no such thing as ignorance is a punishment for sin. I may even say it can be a mercy, as the reprobate wouldn't save their souls anyway, so knowing God and His gospel would only add to their pains in hell.

    Also also purgatory is not hell even if the fires are the same. As the chief pain of hell is loss of God and knowing it was your own fault due to your own bad will.

    Those in purgatory have not lost God so they don't have this pain, the dammed in hell know fully that their loss is irreversible, those in purgatory have hope fully knowing they will eventually see God, the damned have no such hope. They are forever lost and forever aware their status cannot change!


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #197 on: December 11, 2025, 08:22:24 PM »
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  • Divine light and grace refers to baptism/the Catholic faith. The very same Pope has a another docuмent where he uses the same terminology and makes it more clear. You are choosing to interprete his words in a way that is contrary to Catholic teaching, this is modernism and uncharitable to the Pope.

    No, he is very clear. He doesn't just say that the people get "divine light and grace." He ties the reception of divine light and grace to their observance of the "natural law."

    "...observing the natural law...they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace."

    And this makes perfect sense when you understand that the Natural Law is the participation of human reason in God's Eternal Law. To follow the Natural law is to cooperate with God's Holy Will. The promulgation of the Eternal Law is done through grace and the Divine Reason to give light to human reason. There is no need for a priest to give a man instructions on how to follow the Natural Law. And he is "invincibly ignorant" about the fact that there are priests anyway.

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I-II.Q91.A2

    On the contrary, A gloss on Rm. 2:14: When the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law, comments as follows: Although they have no written law, yet they have the natural law, whereby each one knows, and is conscious of, what is good and what is evil.

    I answer that, As stated above (Q90, A1, ad 1), law, being a rule and measure, can be in a person in two ways: in one way, as in him that rules and measures; in another way, as in that which is ruled and measured, since a thing is ruled and measured, insofar as it partakes of the rule or measure. Wherefore, since all things subject to Divine providence are ruled and measured by the eternal law, as was stated above (A1); it is evident that all things partake somewhat of the eternal law, insofar as, namely, from its being imprinted on them, they derive their respective inclinations to their proper acts and ends. Now among all others, the rational creature is subject to Divine providence in the most excellent way, insofar as it partakes of a share of providence, by being provident both for itself and for others. Wherefore it has a share of the Eternal Reason, whereby it has a natural inclination to its proper act and end: and this participation of the eternal law in the rational creature is called the natural law. Hence the Psalmist after saying (Ps 4:6): Offer up the sacrifice of justice, as though someone asked what the works of justice are, adds: Many say, Who showeth us good things? in answer to which question he says: The light of Thy countenance, O Lord, is signed upon us: thus implying that the light of natural reason, whereby we discern what is good and what is evil, which is the function of the natural law, is nothing else than an imprint on us of the Divine light. It is therefore evident that the natural law is nothing else than the rational creature’s participation of the eternal law.


    But the precepts of the Natural Law are not as numerous as the precepts of the Divine Law.

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I-II.Q94.A2.C.3

    Because in man there is first of all an inclination to good in accordance with the nature which he has in common with all substances: inasmuch as every substance seeks the preservation of its own being, according to its nature: and by reason of this inclination, whatever is a means of preserving human life, and of warding off its obstacles, belongs to the natural law. Second, there is in man an inclination to things that pertain to him more specially, according to that nature which he has in common with other animals: and in virtue of this inclination, those things are said to belong to the natural law, which nature has taught to all animals, such as sɛҳuąƖ intercourse, education of offspring and so forth. Third, there is in man an inclination to good, according to the nature of his reason, which nature is proper to him: thus man has a natural inclination to know the truth about God, and to live in society: and in this respect, whatever pertains to this inclination belongs to the natural law; for instance, to shun ignorance, to avoid offending those among whom one has to live, and other such things regarding the above inclination.

    So, here again are the precepts of the Natural Law:

    1. Self-preservation
    2. sɛҳuąƖ Intercourse and education of offspring
    3. Know the truth about God and to live in society (to shun ignorance and avoid offending others)

    These are the precepts that the "invincibly ignorant" are required to observe. If they BOTH observe those precepts AND they are "invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion," then they will "attain eternal life," according to Pius IX.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #198 on: December 11, 2025, 08:31:34 PM »
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  • Oh, it's more than uncharitable to Pope Pope Pius IX ... it's downright slander and it makes him out to be a Pelagian.  We'll need to find the article (I forgot who wrote it it .... might even have been Fr. Feeney) where it docuмents the reaction of Pope Pius IX to these slanders.  To say that someone could be save MERELY due to lack of actual sin, that not being punished suffices for salvation ... THAT IS PELAGIAN HERESY.  Period.  Invincible ignorance and lack of actual sin are MERELY EXCULPATORY but CANNOT BE SALVIFIC.  In order for salvation to be possible, supernatural faith is required (dogmatically taught by Trent, so this interpretation is herestic on those grounds as well).  And that is where "divine light and grace" factor in.  What Pius IX is saying is not Pelagian heresy, but that God WILL provide His divine light and grace for salvation to those who are invincibly ignorant and who have committed no actual sin.  This is precisely what St. Thomas taught.  Pope Pius IX does not specific HOW God might provide the divine light and grace, whether by some interior illumination or, as St. Thomas taught, by sending an angel from Heaven to communicate those truths that must be explicitly believed for salvation, which St. Thomas held to be at minimum the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.  But the perinacious Pelagian heretic here (trying to smear Pope Pius IX with his own heresies) believes that ignorance and lack of actual sin can actually be salvific, that invincible ignorance can save ... and not a few Trad clergy have actually muttered this heretical absurdity.  That's tantamount to a denial of Original Sin, since the Church teaches that you cannot be saved even if you have Original Sin alone (without having committed actual sin), and again that you must have supernatural faith in order to be saved (dogmatically taught at Trent and many other places), and the minimum truths necessary to be believed explicitly in order to even make supernatural faith possible are the core mysteries regarding the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.

    Yes, your highlighted quote above is almost exactly what Pius IX is saying. But you left out a few words. I'll fix it for you:

     What Pius IX is saying is not Pelagian heresy, but that God WILL provide His divine light and grace [by way of the Natural Law] for salvation to those who are invincibly ignorant and who have committed no actual sin.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #199 on: December 11, 2025, 09:39:34 PM »
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  • Divine light and grace refers to baptism/the Catholic faith. The very same Pope has a another docuмent where he uses the same terminology and makes it more clear. You are choosing to interprete his words in a way that is contrary to Catholic teaching, this is modernism and uncharitable to the Pope.

    Maybe Singulari Quadam is the other docuмent from Pius IX on invincible ignorance that you refer to?

    "Faith orders Us to hold that out of the Apostolic Roman Church no person can be saved, that it is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever will not enter therein shall perish in the waters of the deluge. On the other hand it is necessary to hold for certain that ignorance of the true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, is not a fault in the eyes of God. But who will presume to arrogate to himself the right to mark the limits of such an ignorance, holding in account the various conditions of peoples, of countries, of minds, and of the infinite multiplicity of human things? When delivered from the bonds of the body, we shall see God as He is, we will comprehend perfectly by what admirable and indissoluble bond the divine mercy and the divine justice are united; but as long as we are upon the earth, bent under the weight of this mortal mass which overloads the soul, let us hold firmly that which the Catholic doctrine teaches us, that there is only one God, one Faith, one Baptism; to seek to penetrate further is not permitted."


    Or maybe it is this one, Singulari Quidem?

    "The Church clearly declares that the only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian faith, which teaches the truth, scatters the darkness of ignorance by the splendor of its light, and works through love. This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control."


    What he says in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore is much more precise and clear:

    "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom “the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.”


    In those docuмents, Pius IX is consistently saying three things:

    1. He is referring to souls that die in their "ignorance of the true religion."

    2. He is saying that these ignorant souls are "outside of the Church."

    3. He is saying that EENS does not apply to those with "invincible ignorance about our most holy religion."





    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #200 on: December 11, 2025, 11:57:07 PM »
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  • In those docuмents, Pius IX is consistently saying three things:

    1. He is referring to souls that die in their "ignorance of the true religion."

    2. He is saying that these ignorant souls are "outside of the Church."

    3. He is saying that EENS does not apply to those with "invincible ignorance about our most holy religion."

    You're a lying and slandering heretic, and despite having been repeatedly correct your remain pertinacious in your herest, and the grave sins of both slander and of spreading heresy.

    At no point does he say "EENS does not apply", you filthy liar.

    We've already explained to you numerous times what he actually is saying, namely, that their lack of faith is "NOT A FAULT", i.e. that they are not guilty of an actual sin of infidelity.  This is merely repeating the exact same teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas.  [First Quote]

    Then he says that there can be no HOPE for salvation unless he's excused (again, synonymous with not being at fault), with HOPE being a future-looking virtue, referring to the FUTURE acquisition of something that you do not currently possess, by definition. [Second Quote]

    Finally (and we've dealt with this one before), they they are not going to receive eternal punishments (those in Limbo are neither saved nor are they punished) on account of invincible ignorance and that God will provided His light and grace to bring them ultimately to salvation ... without stating how. [Third Quote]

    We've already explained these to you, but you pertinaciously continue to regurgitate your pernicious heresy and repeat the same stuff that was refuted before.

    To claim that exclupation of guilt for the crime of infidelity suffices for salvation is PELAGIAN HERESY, and you are therefore a Pelagian heretic.  You are also a heretic for claiming that one can be saved without supernatural faith, since you claim they can be saved as-is, in ignorance, without having been enlightened or illumined regarding supernatural faith.  You thereby adhere to the second heresy that salvation is possible without supernatural faith.

    AT NO POINT DOES POPE PIUS IX TEACH YOUR HERESY THAT THE INVINCIBLY IGNORANT CAN BE SAVED IN THEIR CURRENT CONDITION, IN IGNORANCE, WITHOUT FAITH ... but clearly indicates that they required further enlightenment and grace, which God will not deny them if they are not at fault regarding their infidelity.

    St. Thomas Aquinas, De Veritate, Question 14 (Faith), 11.1
    Quote
    Granted that everyone is bound to believe something explicitly, no untenable conclusion follows even if someone is brought up in the forest or among wild beasts. For it pertains to divine providence to furnish everyone with what is necessary for salvation, provided that on his part there is no hindrance. Thus, if someone so brought up followed the direction of natural reason in seeking good and avoiding evil, we must most certainly hold that God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him as he sent Peter to Cornelius (Acts 10:20).  Although it is not within our power to know matters of faith by ourselves alone, still, if we do what we can, that is, follow the guidance of natural reason, God will not withhold from us that which we need.

    This merely states, and Pius IX merely reiterates that if you do have someone who's invincibly ignorant of those things that must be believed at a minimum for supernatural faith and therefore for salvation (for St. Thomas, the Holy Trinity and Incarnation), then God would reveal to him what is necessary for faith, either through internal inspiration or by sending a preacher.  In another passage that I cannot find at the moment, he states that God could/would send an angel to preach the faith to him as necessary ... but of course, God could just reveal it directly by way of some other inspiration.

    IGNORANCE CANNOT SAVE.  IT IS NOT SALVIFIC, BUT MERELY EXCULPATORY.  To say that someone can be saved on account of ignorance and on account of not being guilty of actual sin for which one should be punished is Pelagian heresy.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #201 on: December 12, 2025, 12:07:35 AM »
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  • Yes, your highlighted quote above is almost exactly what Pius IX is saying. But you left out a few words. I'll fix it for you:

     What Pius IX is saying is not Pelagian heresy, but that God WILL provide His divine light and grace [by way of the Natural Law] for salvation to those who are invincibly ignorant and who have committed no actual sin.



    No, Pius IX most certainly does not teach Pelagian heresy, you filthy scuм ... but you attribute Pelagian heresy to Him.

    You inject your [by way of Natural Law] interpretation into what He says to render him a Pelagian heretic, since simply adhering to the natural law is NOT SALVIFIC.  There MUST BE SUPERNATURAL FAITH, and living by the natural law cannot and does not blot out Original Sin, since that can be done by Christ's Redemption.

    You don't even believe in a Baptism of Desire.  There's no reference to any kind of Baptism whatsoever in your heretical soteriology.  So here you commit yet another heresy, by holding that salvation can be had without the Sacraments.

    You inject your heretical intepretation by your own admission (in Hellish red font) above, adulterating the meaning of Pope Pius IX and turning him into a Pelagian heretic.  If you claim that somoene can earn his way to salvation merely by following the natural law, without any supernatural faith, thereby expunging and overcoming Original sin by your own following of natural law, thereby rendering Our Lord's Redemption entirely superfluous -- there are at least half a dozen heretical propositions floating around in this diseased mind and soul of yours.

    You deny Original Sin ... Pelagian heresy ... and claim that you can be saved so long as you do not commit ACTUAL sins, by your own power, without any supernatural faith, merely by following the natural law.

    You clearly don't even know what Pelagian heresy is.

    At this point, you are diabolically possessed as you continue to promote your vile heresy.

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #202 on: December 12, 2025, 05:42:57 AM »
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  • "invincible ignorance" was just about the last thing that should have been discussed in the mid-late 19th century regarding EENS. Who would this even have been applied to at the time? What lands did not yet have the Faith? What was actually needed was yet another ex cathedra definition of EENS, probably in the most definite terms to date, as EENS denial was already rapidly spreading. Unfortunately, Pius IX referencing the "invincibly ignorant" is the very thing that gave the EENS deniers ammunition to run wild with their heresy. We see the fruit of  "invincible ignorance" being referenced, and an explicit EENS affirmation not happening, now with near universal EENS denial among Catholics. 
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #203 on: December 12, 2025, 05:57:25 AM »
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  • "invincible ignorance" was just about the last thing that should have been discussed in the mid-late 19th century regarding EENS. Who would this even have been applied to at the time? What lands did not yet have the Faith? What was actually needed was yet another ex cathedra definition of EENS, probably in the most definite terms to date, as EENS denial was already rapidly spreading. Unfortunately, Pius IX referencing the "invincibly ignorant" is the very thing that gave the EENS deniers ammunition to run wild with their heresy. We see the fruit of  "invincible ignorance" being referenced, and an explicit EENS affirmation not happening, now with near universal EENS denial among Catholics.
    The term "invincible ignorance" should be completely abandoned as it means those people who are incapable of thinking at all, such as those who are in some way brain injured.  

    When speaking about the salvation of souls, the term "invincible ignorance" should be replaced with the correct term used by Pope Pius IX; "those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion".
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #204 on: December 12, 2025, 07:09:20 AM »
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  • At no point does he say "EENS does not apply", you filthy liar.
    Yeah, and he believes this to be a "valid" "development of doctrine" regarding EENS.

    This is exactly what Pope Pius IX condemned at the Vatican Council:

    Quote
    Hence, too,that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding.


    Angelus is saying that, regarding what "has once been declared by holy mother Church" (that there is no salvation outside of Her and the Faith), there is a "more profound understanding" of the Dogma that began in the mid-19th century..which caused the Dogma to no longer mean what it had always meant

    What Pope Pius IX himself professed at the Council:
    Quote
    I, Pius, bishop of the catholic church, with firm faith believe and profess each and every article contained in the profession of faith which the holy Roman church uses
    [...]
    that
    there are seven sacraments of the new law,
    truly and properly so called,
    instituted by our lord Jesus Christ and
    necessary for salvation
    [...]
    This true catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold, is what I shall steadfastly maintain and confess, by the help of God, in all its completeness and purity until my dying breath, and I shall do my best to ensure that all others do the same. This is what I, the same Pius, promise, vow and swear. So help me God and these holy gospels of God

    does not actually mean what it says. And, get this, the Vatican Council was after this so-called "valid" "development" of EENS is alleged to have occured

    So every time the Church had declared that there is no salvation outside of Her and no salvation outside of the Faith (including at Vatican One) what She actually meant was that there is some salvation outside Her, and some salvation outside of the Faith
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #205 on: December 12, 2025, 08:18:38 AM »
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  • Angelus, EENS is a doctrine.  Those who die ignorant of the Church will not be saved.  They will not enter paradise or heaven.  At best, they go to Limbo, which is part of hell.  But they don’t suffer, except the loss of seeing God.  

    But they will be in Limbo, FOR ALL ETERNITY.  Period.  They will never enter heaven.  If you say otherwise, you’re denying EENS and are a heretic.  You also deny Trent 10 different ways.  


    Offline Everlast22

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #206 on: December 12, 2025, 08:22:36 AM »
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  • Angelus, EENS is a doctrine.  
    Doctrine?
    You mean Dogma?

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #207 on: December 12, 2025, 09:06:26 AM »
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  • You're a lying and slandering heretic, and despite having been repeatedly correct your remain pertinacious in your herest, and the grave sins of both slander and of spreading heresy.

    At no point does he say "EENS does not apply", you filthy liar.


    My statement that "EENS does not apply to those with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion" is technically correct. But I can see why you are confused by it. I should have said "...does not apply perfectly...." But I suspect that would not have satisfied you either.

    The "Outside the Church" part of EENS (the "EE" part) does not apply to those with "invincible ignorance of our most holy religion." Our "most holy religion" is "the Church." The "invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion" are BY DEFINITION not INSIDE the Church. They are OUTSIDE. Pius IX is recognizing this fact.

    So, Pius IX is defining a logical category of people in the world, who through no fault of their own, are not aware that the Catholic Church is the true religion. He is saying that this lack of awareness leaves them innocent even though they are not members of the Church. So they will not be punished because of that lack of awareness ALONE. 

    The second part of EENS (the NS part), in my opinion, does apply to the "invincibly ignorant." I do believe that they will not have "salvation" properly understood as going straight to the beatific vision upon their death. But they may have "eternal life" of some sort, which is why I made my first comment on this topic. 

    But the "invincibly ignorant" will ONLY have that "eternal life" IF AND ONLY IF they live "observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives." And they attain that "eternal life" ONLY by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace." And the "divine light and grace" comes ONLY through the same "natural law" mentioned at the beginning of the same sentence written by Pius IX. Pius IX is just following St. Thomas Aquinas's understanding of the Natural Law as the cause of supernatural light and grace in the rational soul, which I explained in great detail in this earlier post.

    And what I said, is no more scandalous or heretical that what Pius IX said in Singulari Quidem

    "Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation 
    unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control."

    Pius IX formulated it like that, not me. I do think that formulation is open to the wrong interpretation, which is why he later clarified it with the longer formula in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore:

    There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments


    Here are all three quotes from Pius IX again:


     Singulari Quadam 

    "Faith orders Us to hold that out of the Apostolic Roman Church no person can be saved, that it is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever will not enter therein shall perish in the waters of the deluge. On the other hand it is necessary to hold for certain that ignorance of the true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, is not a fault in the eyes of God. But who will presume to arrogate to himself the right to mark the limits of such an ignorance, holding in account the various conditions of peoples, of countries, of minds, and of the infinite multiplicity of human things? When delivered from the bonds of the body, we shall see God as He is, we will comprehend perfectly by what admirable and indissoluble bond the divine mercy and the divine justice are united; but as long as we are upon the earth, bent under the weight of this mortal mass which overloads the soul, let us hold firmly that which the Catholic doctrine teaches us, that there is only one God, one Faith, one Baptism; to seek to penetrate further is not permitted."


     Singulari Quidem

    "The Church clearly declares that the only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian faith, which teaches the truth, scatters the darkness of ignorance by the splendor of its light, and works through love. This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control."


     Quanto Conficiamur Moerore 

    "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom “the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.”



    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #208 on: December 12, 2025, 09:27:14 AM »
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  • No, Pius IX most certainly does not teach Pelagian heresy, you filthy scuм ... but you attribute Pelagian heresy to Him.

    You inject your [by way of Natural Law] interpretation into what He says to render him a Pelagian heretic, since simply adhering to the natural law is NOT SALVIFIC.  There MUST BE SUPERNATURAL FAITH, and living by the natural law cannot and does not blot out Original Sin, since that can be done by Christ's Redemption.

    You don't even believe in a Baptism of Desire.  There's no reference to any kind of Baptism whatsoever in your heretical soteriology.  So here you commit yet another heresy, by holding that salvation can be had without the Sacraments.

    You inject your heretical intepretation by your own admission (in Hellish red font) above, adulterating the meaning of Pope Pius IX and turning him into a Pelagian heretic.  If you claim that somoene can earn his way to salvation merely by following the natural law, without any supernatural faith, thereby expunging and overcoming Original sin by your own following of natural law, thereby rendering Our Lord's Redemption entirely superfluous -- there are at least half a dozen heretical propositions floating around in this diseased mind and soul of yours.

    You deny Original Sin ... Pelagian heresy ... and claim that you can be saved so long as you do not commit ACTUAL sins, by your own power, without any supernatural faith, merely by following the natural law.

    You clearly don't even know what Pelagian heresy is.

    At this point, you are diabolically possessed as you continue to promote your vile heresy.

    You don't understand Pelagianism properly. You have an oversimplified view of it.

    Pelagianism is the theological position that denied the doctrine of Original Sin, asserting that humanity's nature was not corrupted or vitiated by the Fall of Adam.

    Consequently, it claimed that the human will (free will or liberum arbitrium) remained entirely unimpaired, allowing every individual the natural capacity to live a sinless life and attain salvation solely through his or her own efforts and innate moral motivations.

    I have never denied the doctrine of Original Sin. Nor have I asserted that humanity's nature was not corrupted or vitiated by the Fall of Adam. Further, I have never claimed that any individual has the natural capacity to live a sinless life and attain salvation only through his own efforts and innate moral motivations.

    Rather, I have said, following Pius IX, that only with "divine light and grace" can an "invincibly ignorant" person have "eternal life." That is not Pelagianism. You are misunderstanding what the word, Pelagianism means and misapplying it.

    And even if you say you are misapplying it, since I am simply following Pius IX's formulation, your accusation is an accusation of him as well as me. Even if you think I am saying something different that Pius IX, I am telling you that my intention is to faithfully explain what he said in my own words.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #209 on: December 12, 2025, 09:33:34 AM »
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  • "invincible ignorance" was just about the last thing that should have been discussed in the mid-late 19th century regarding EENS. Who would this even have been applied to at the time? What lands did not yet have the Faith? What was actually needed was yet another ex cathedra definition of EENS, probably in the most definite terms to date, as EENS denial was already rapidly spreading. Unfortunately, Pius IX referencing the "invincibly ignorant" is the very thing that gave the EENS deniers ammunition to run wild with their heresy. We see the fruit of  "invincible ignorance" being referenced, and an explicit EENS affirmation not happening, now with near universal EENS denial among Catholics.

    Now who is slandering and questioning the motives of Pius IX. His doctrine was not a mistake. He was the Pope. He knows more than us.

    And by the way, even if you don't think his statement was infallible, the very fact that the Pope said it and there were no accusations of "heresy" all over the place should at least give you and others pause when you call other Catholics heretics simply for repeating what Pius IX taught.

    And he most certainly "taught" it. Three times, in fact. And over the course of a decade.


    Here are all three quotes from Pius IX again:


    Singulari Quadam

    "Faith orders Us to hold that out of the Apostolic Roman Church no person can be saved, that it is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever will not enter therein shall perish in the waters of the deluge. On the other hand it is necessary to hold for certain that ignorance of the true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, is not a fault in the eyes of God. But who will presume to arrogate to himself the right to mark the limits of such an ignorance, holding in account the various conditions of peoples, of countries, of minds, and of the infinite multiplicity of human things? When delivered from the bonds of the body, we shall see God as He is, we will comprehend perfectly by what admirable and indissoluble bond the divine mercy and the divine justice are united; but as long as we are upon the earth, bent under the weight of this mortal mass which overloads the soul, let us hold firmly that which the Catholic doctrine teaches us, that there is only one God, one Faith, one Baptism; to seek to penetrate further is not permitted."


    Singulari Quidem

    "The Church clearly declares that the only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian faith, which teaches the truth, scatters the darkness of ignorance by the splendor of its light, and works through love. This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control."


    Quanto Conficiamur Moerore

    "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom “the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.”