Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 13031 times)

0 Members and 12 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 13124
  • Reputation: +8274/-2563
  • Gender: Male
Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #180 on: December 11, 2025, 02:57:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The problem is you apparently think Paradise = Heaven. This is your error. Paradise is absolutely not Heaven.

    In reality, Paradise = Limbo of the Fathers = Abraham's Bosom
    Wrong.  Abraham's Bosom was a TEMPORARY PLACE.

    In the context of the 4 last things - death, judgement, heaven, hell....paradise = heaven.

    Even if you argue that Abraham's bosom = paradise, then ALL THOSE who went there, ended up in heaven.  So Abraham's Bosom = heaven (eventually).

    As i've told you before, when the concept of "Limbo" was discussed (related to infants dying before baptism), they were NOT talking about Abraham's bosom, which was STRICTLY for the OT Fathers.  The new testament as "Limbo" as a permanent state, which is the upper parts of hell.  

    Abraham's bosom is temporary for OT.  "Limbo" is permanent for new testament.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13124
    • Reputation: +8274/-2563
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #181 on: December 11, 2025, 02:59:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Those "invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion" are just that INVINCIBLY ignorant. You and Stubborn and WorldsAway want to make that person's ignorance into VINCIBLE ignorance. No, that won't work.

    The invincibility of their ignorance remains invincible up to their death. There will not be some Catholic priest who swoops in and explains the faith to them and baptizes them. If that would be the case, the person would not be in the logical category of people that Pius IX is talking about. Those people would suffer from ignorance that is VINCIBLE (overcome able) before they die. That is not who Pius IX refers to.

    Did I say that enough ways for you to understand? Pay attention to the definitions of the words used and you will understand, hopefully.
    An ignorant person does not stay ignorant AFTER being illuminated by Divine grace.  :facepalm:  You're ignoring what the pope says.


    Online WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1295
    • Reputation: +881/-125
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #182 on: December 11, 2025, 03:07:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Now, finally, I think I might have a clue why don't understand me. You don't understand what "paradise" is.

    You quoted my words below (which I stand by 100% BTW):
    "not all who are outside the Church will burn in hell forever and never make it to paradise"

    Then you went on a rant, mocking me:

    "Erm, but I actually proposed limbo for them, but I also said they can be saved, but not like 'salvation' saved, but actually yes salvation but not like the Saints salvation, because only those who go straight to heaven can be said to have 'salvation', but those who die outside the Church can make it to paradise, but not like actual paradise, but they can also get to heaven, but remember I actually said limbo so you're wrong to call me a heretic".

    To be clear, I never said they went to Heaven. At least I don't remember saying that. If I said it, it was a mistake. But I certainly said that they go to paradise. And paradise is just another name for the Limbus Patrum or Abraham's Bosom.

    The problem is you apparently think Paradise = Heaven. This is your error. Paradise is absolutely not Heaven.

    In reality, Paradise = Limbo of the Fathers = Abraham's Bosom
    Abrahams Bosom was "Paradise" because Christ descended into it. Because of Christ's presence. Christ is not present in any region of Hell now, or ever again. No one, in any region of Hell, is in "Paradise" now, or ever again.

    Quote
    However, not all who are outside the Church will burn in Hell forever and never make it to Paradise. In fact, even most Catholics will suffer "the fires of Hell" in Purgatory for a long time before entering Paradise
    You say those outside the Church can enter Paradise, you say Catholics enter Paradise. Crazy



    Quote
    Yes, those outside the Church who remain in their state of sin by rejecting Christ and His Church at the time of their death "cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Ever." Agreed

    But people in those categories can make an act of Perfect Contrition to God directly before their death can be justified by that act. They will not go to Heaven directly. They will need to expiate their sins. Where do they do that?
    "Those categories" being Pagans, Jews, Heretics, Schismatics. You say they can all be justified by an act of perfect contrition and enter Heaven, after their sins are expiated

    Quote
    Don't worry, the barbarian hordes are not going to overrun the Pearly Gates. Most people do not keep the natural law. Most people (Catholics included) only keep the divine law because they are afraid of going to Hell
    I suppose "Pearly Gates" here doesn't mean "heaven" either. "Most people", meaning some do.

    Quote
    Yes, a person who is aware of the Catholic faith (i.e., one that is not invincibly ignorant) must believe the Catholic faith to be saved
    You make no distinction between the manner of "saved" a Catholic is, and the alleged manner of "saved" the invincibly ignorant can be

    Quote
    I think it would be the most fitting abode for the "invincibly ignorant" until Christ's Second Coming, as Abraham's Bosom performed a very similar function prior to Christ's Resurrection.
    You say the invincibly ignorant will only be in the "limbo" until Christ's Second Coming. And then compare Abrahams Bosom to it as a "very similar function". Those in Abraham's Bosom went to Heaven after the Resurrection. What is the conclusion a normal person would draw from what you're saying here? Where do you think those alleged "invincibly ignorant" go after Christ's Second Coming?


    Quote
    Because as Pius IX says those with "invincible ignorance about our most holy religion...are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace."
    You misinterpret Pius IX, and believe that the invincibly ignorant can die while invincibly ignorant about the Church and Faith and attain eternal life. "Eternal life", oh, that's the Beatific Vision, as has always been taught. So you do believe they can be "saved"



    You cannot even deny that you actually believe such people can enter Heaven (Or the Kingdom of God, or Paradise, or enjoy the Beatific Vision, etc.), because you believe they can be justified. Your words:


    Quote
    So these gentiles (those outside) were converted to the faith (justified) not by hearing about religious laws, whether true ones or false ones. Rather, by were converted to the true faith (justified) by the grace of Christ helping them to obey the natural law written on their hearts.
    They voluntarily cooperated with the divine grace. It doesn't matter what religion they may have been surrounded by. God chose those people and gave them special graces to come to the true faith. Note he did not say they came to the Church. Remember, these people are described as gentiles (those outside).

    Trent, on Justification:

    Quote
    This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting
    Those justified become heirs according to hope of life everlasting
    Or should we play some more word games and say Trent doesn't mean Heaven, the Beatific Vision, when it says 'life everlasting"?

    Read the Athanasian Creed. Believe it. Profess it

    "Whoever wills to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he holds the catholic faith. Unless a person keeps this faith whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish eternally."

    The "invincibly ignorant" who, despite their invincible ignorance, you believe can "attain eternal life" (some would call this "saved"), do not hold the Catholic faith. They cannot even will to be saved as they are, while alive

    Quote
    2 Corinthians 4:3 And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost


    I'm not entertaining your BS anymore
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13124
    • Reputation: +8274/-2563
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #183 on: December 11, 2025, 03:22:53 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The most shocking heresy of Angelus is to compare Abraham with some native indian.  He says "both are invincibly ignorant of Christ".  Totally, 100% false.

    Abraham HAD to believe in the coming redeemer.  With this belief came the foundation of the Israelite religion...waiting for Christ.  But to those "holy" men before Abraham (i.e. Adam, Noe, Melchisedech, etc)...they were not invincibly ignorant of God's plans.  The "coming redeemer" was their religion.  And they worshipped God and offered sacrifices to God.  This was their religion.

    Then Moses came along and the Israelite religion took shape, gradually.  Sacrifices were still offered, with more elaborate means, and with a priesthood, but the religion stayed the same - preparation for the coming Redeemer.


    The new testament, native indian is both ignorant of God's RELIGION and His SACRIFICE.  They are ignorant of everything.  They are not "holy" in any sense of the world.  They are completely DEFICIENT in any religious sense, whatsoever.

    But you compare Adam, Noe and Abraham (whom the Catholic Faith calls 'holy' and 'in heaven') to a native indian who knows NOTHING about the Church, much less about Christ.

    Your comparison is an abomination and a blasphemous heresy.

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1549
    • Reputation: +634/-117
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #184 on: December 11, 2025, 03:31:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Wrong.  Abraham's Bosom was a TEMPORARY PLACE.

    In the context of the 4 last things - death, judgement, heaven, hell....paradise = heaven.

    Even if you argue that Abraham's bosom = paradise, then ALL THOSE who went there, ended up in heaven.  So Abraham's Bosom = heaven (eventually).

    As i've told you before, when the concept of "Limbo" was discussed (related to infants dying before baptism), they were NOT talking about Abraham's bosom, which was STRICTLY for the OT Fathers.  The new testament as "Limbo" as a permanent state, which is the upper parts of hell. 

    Abraham's bosom is temporary for OT.  "Limbo" is permanent for new testament.

    I have already quoted this passage from Aquinas numerous times in this thread. While he does not claim to know for sure, he says "nothing prevents Abraham’s bosom from remaining after Christ’s coming and from being altogether distinct from limbo."

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.Q69.A4.C.3


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13124
    • Reputation: +8274/-2563
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #185 on: December 11, 2025, 03:44:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 1) St Thomas isn't infallible.  2) who goes to Abraham's bosom and who goes to "normal" limbo?  3)  Or is St Thomas saying that Abraham's bosom remains a place, but uninhabited, like the Garden of Eden?


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47846
    • Reputation: +28301/-5298
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #186 on: December 11, 2025, 03:57:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'm not entertaining your BS anymore

    Yeah, this guy needs to be cut off.  He's woven together such an intricate tapestry of bullshit to justify his heresy that in order to save face he literally has to specify "Hell" (a term every Catholic knows what it means) as "everlasting Hell" ... since in his bizarro world there's a temporary Hell also, and then he redefined the term salvation or being "saved", another term that all Catholics know what it means, as going directly to Heaven without stopping over in Purgatory.  If you go to Purgatory first, then you're not saved.

    He's had to warp basic terms like "Hell" and "salvation" by redefining them into something other than what they had long ago meant in order to keep his heresy on some kind of life support.

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1549
    • Reputation: +634/-117
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #187 on: December 11, 2025, 04:26:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Abrahams Bosom was "Paradise" because Christ descended into it. Because of Christ's presence. Christ is not present in any region of Hell now, or ever again. No one, in any region of Hell, is in "Paradise" now, or ever again.
    You say those outside the Church can enter Paradise, you say Catholics enter Paradise. Crazy


    "Those categories" being Pagans, Jews, Heretics, Schismatics. You say they can all be justified by an act of perfect contrition and enter Heaven, after their sins are expiated
    I suppose "Pearly Gates" here doesn't mean "heaven" either. "Most people", meaning some do.
    You make no distinction between the manner of "saved" a Catholic is, and the alleged manner of "saved" the invincibly ignorant can be
    You say the invincibly ignorant will only be in the "limbo" until Christ's Second Coming. And then compare Abrahams Bosom to it as a "very similar function". Those in Abraham's Bosom went to Heaven after the Resurrection. What is the conclusion a normal person would draw from what you're saying here? Where do you think those alleged "invincibly ignorant" go after Christ's Second Coming?

    You misinterpret Pius IX, and believe that the invincibly ignorant can die while invincibly ignorant about the Church and Faith and attain eternal life. "Eternal life", oh, that's the Beatific Vision, as has always been taught. So you do believe they can be "saved"



    You cannot even deny that you actually believe such people can enter Heaven (Or the Kingdom of God, or Paradise, or enjoy the Beatific Vision, etc.), because you believe they can be justified. Your words:


    Trent, on Justification:
    Those justified become heirs according to hope of life everlasting
    Or should we play some more word games and say Trent doesn't mean Heaven, the Beatific Vision, when it says 'life everlasting"?

    Read the Athanasian Creed. Believe it. Profess it

    "Whoever wills to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he holds the catholic faith. Unless a person keeps this faith whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish eternally."

    The "invincibly ignorant" who, despite their invincible ignorance, you believe can "attain eternal life" (some would call this "saved"), do not hold the Catholic faith. They cannot even will to be saved as they are, while alive


    I'm not entertaining your BS anymore

    So many errors in your reply, it will be hard to address all of them without starting with the most fundamental one first.

    1. Where are Enoch and Elijah, Worldsaway? They are in the Earthly Paradise. Right now.

    But you said, "No one, in any region of Hell, is in "Paradise" now, or ever again." First, off Paradise is not in Hell. Never was. Second, read Aquinas.

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I.Q102.A1

    Whether paradise is a corporeal place?

    On the contrary, Augustine says (Gen ad lit. viii, 1): Three general opinions prevail about paradise. Some understand a place merely corporeal; others a place entirely spiritual; while others, whose opinion, I confess, pleases me, hold that paradise was both corporeal and spiritual.

    I answer that, As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei xiii, 21): Nothing prevents us from holding, within proper limits, a spiritual paradise; so long as we believe in the truth of the events narrated as having there occurred. For whatever Scripture tells us about paradise is set down as matter of history; and wherever Scripture makes use of this method, we must hold to the historical truth of the narrative as a foundation of whatever spiritual explanation we may offer. And so paradise, as Isidore says (Etym. xiv, 3), is a place situated in the east, its name being the Greek for garden. It was fitting that it should be in the east; for it is to be believed that it was situated in the most excellent part of the earth. Now the east is the right hand on the heavens, as the Philosopher explains (De Coel. ii, 2); and the right hand is nobler than the left: hence it was fitting that God should place the earthly paradise in the east.

    AND

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I.Q102.A2

    Whether paradise was a place adapted to be the abode of man?

    Obj. 3: Further, a place which contains nothing is useless. But after sin, paradise was not occupied by man. Therefore if it were adapted as a dwelling-place for man, it seems that God made paradise to no purpose.

    Reply Obj. 3: Paradise did not become useless through being unoccupied by man after sin, just as immortality was not conferred on man in vain, though he was to lose it. For thereby we learn God’s kindness to man, and what man lost by sin. Moreover, some say that Enoch and Elias still dwell in that paradise.

    2. The Paradise that the Catholics will enter is called the New Heaven and the New Earth, which, if you will read Apocalypse 22, you will see reference to the "Tree of Life." Where was the Tree of Life? In the earthly Paradise.

    Here is the quote from Apocalypse 22:

    1 And he shewed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.  2 In the midst of the street thereof, and on both sides of the river, was the tree of life, bearing twelve fruits, yielding its fruits every month, and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.  3 And there shall be no curse any more; but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and his servants shall serve him.  4 And they shall see his face: and his name shall be on their foreheads.  5 And night shall be no more: and they shall not need the light of the lamp, nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall enlighten them, and they shall reign for ever and ever.

    3. You have misrepresented what who I was talking about in "those categories." I had specifically limited by discussion to Heretics and Schismatics, by definition, people who were baptized and formerly members of the Church. You conveniently disregard that and accuse me of including "Pagans and Jews" in "those categories." No, I did not include them then, and I would not include them as those who go to Heaven. Pagans and Jews do not go to Heaven. I never said that.

    4. In my mention of the Pearly Gates, I said the following:

    "Don't worry, the barbarian hordes are not going to overrun the Pearly Gates. Most people do not keep the natural law. Most people (Catholics included) only keep the divine law because they are afraid of going to Hell."

    The Pearly Gates are again a reference to the New Heaven and New Earth. The Pearly Gates are mentioned in Apocalypse 21:

    21 And the twelve gates are twelve pearls, one to each: and every several gate was of one several pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
     
    The rest of your errors in your last reply follow from those above or others that I have already address in other posts. 




    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1549
    • Reputation: +634/-117
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #188 on: December 11, 2025, 04:29:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 1) St Thomas isn't infallible.  2) who goes to Abraham's bosom and who goes to "normal" limbo?  3)  Or is St Thomas saying that Abraham's bosom remains a place, but uninhabited, like the Garden of Eden?

    It doesn't matter if St. Thomas is infallible. He is clearly not a heretic. He speculated on the questions we are discussing. So calling me a heretic for suggesting the treatment of the "invincibly ignorant" will be similar to the treatment of the Fathers who could not know Christ, is uncalled for.

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1549
    • Reputation: +634/-117
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #189 on: December 11, 2025, 04:38:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yeah, this guy needs to be cut off.  He's woven together such an intricate tapestry of bullshit to justify his heresy that in order to save face he literally has to specify "Hell" (a term every Catholic knows what it means) as "everlasting Hell" ... since in his bizarro world there's a temporary Hell also, and then he redefined the term salvation or being "saved", another term that all Catholics know what it means, as going directly to Heaven without stopping over in Purgatory.  If you go to Purgatory first, then you're not saved.

    He's had to warp basic terms like "Hell" and "salvation" by redefining them into something other than what they had long ago meant in order to keep his heresy on some kind of life support.

    Happy Advent to you too. I'm praying for your conversion, you know.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13124
    • Reputation: +8274/-2563
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #190 on: December 11, 2025, 04:46:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 1) St Thomas isn't infallible.  2) who goes to Abraham's bosom and who goes to "normal" limbo?  3)  Or is St Thomas saying that Abraham's bosom remains a place, but uninhabited, like the Garden of Eden?
    Please answer 2 and 3.


    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1549
    • Reputation: +634/-117
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #191 on: December 11, 2025, 05:05:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Please answer 2 and 3.

    2) Abraham's Bosom is simply another name for the Limbus Patrum, the Limbo of the Fathers. It is also a synonym of the earthly Paradise that Jesus spoke of to Dismas. And it is also the place where Enoch and Elijah are believed to be (Aquinas). I can't answer your question because I don't know what you mean by "normal limbo." Read Aquinas. I gave you the link. Maybe you will learn something from him.

    3) St. Thomas did not have any strong personal conviction about whether Abraham's Bosom remained after Christ. But he said "nothing prevents" it from remaining, or at least the place the serves the same purpose.

    The bottom line is that our conversations on these mysteries is somewhat speculative. The Church has not ruled one way or another. Different people are allowed to have different opinions. It is clearly not heretical simply to posit the possibility of these abodes continuing to exist and being populated. Aquinas himself does that very thing.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13124
    • Reputation: +8274/-2563
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #192 on: December 11, 2025, 05:24:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 2) Abraham's Bosom is simply another name for the Limbus Patrum, the Limbo of the Fathers. It is also a synonym of the earthly Paradise that Jesus spoke of to Dismas. And it is also the place where Enoch and Elijah are believed to be (Aquinas). I can't answer your question because I don't know what you mean by "normal limbo." Read Aquinas. I gave you the link. Maybe you will learn something from him.

    3) St. Thomas did not have any strong personal conviction about whether Abraham's Bosom remained after Christ. But he said "nothing prevents" it from remaining, or at least the place the serves the same purpose.

    The bottom line is that our conversations on these mysteries is somewhat speculative. The Church has not ruled one way or another. Different people are allowed to have different opinions. It is clearly not heretical simply to posit the possibility of these abodes continuing to exist and being populated. Aquinas himself does that very thing.
    Normal limbo = St Thomas' (and other's) Limbo of infants (questions 70 and 71).  It is a separate place (the upper part of hell) than Abraham's bosom.

    The point being, Normal/infant limbo is part of hell (i.e. it is eternal).  On the contrary, EVERYONE who went to Abraham's bosom eventually went to heaven.  It is temporary.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 47846
    • Reputation: +28301/-5298
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #193 on: December 11, 2025, 07:43:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Normal limbo = St Thomas' (and other's) Limbo of infants (questions 70 and 71).  It is a separate place (the upper part of hell) than Abraham's bosom.

    The point being, Normal/infant limbo is part of hell (i.e. it is eternal).  On the contrary, EVERYONE who went to Abraham's bosom eventually went to heaven.  It is temporary.

    Well, it's all speculative.  Even before Our Lord opened the gates of Heaven, there were probably still people who were not bad enough to go to Hell, but not good enough, i.e. did not have the necessary dispositions to end up in the waiting room to Heaven.  It's debatable whether Limbo is part of Hell.  I personally do not think it is.  Hell is filled wtih the reprobates who are at enmity with God.

    So, let's say that there were before Our Lord's time some infants who died without having attained to the use of reason and without having been born among the Jews and somehow therefore put in line for justification via circuмcision (as some Church Fathers thought ... though I don't buy it myself).  These would not be in the same state as, say, St. Joseph or a St. John the Baptist.  Nevertheless, I don't see why they'd need to have been kept entirely segregated, just as now I don't believe that the infants in Limbo are entirely segregated from the Blessed in Heaven.  I believe they can communicate, interact, go to the same places ... it's just that they cannot see God face to face and enjoy the Beatific Vision.  In that sense, if anything Limbo is part of Heaven.  Would the infants in Limbo ever mix it up with and comingle with the damned in Hell who hated God and curse Him for all eternity?  No.  Before you say that people in these different areas can't mix ... Our Lord actually had the Beatific Vision His entire life, and yet He was on earth mixing it up with those who did not.

    I actually imagine that God's design for the Temple actually reflects the "layout" of eternity, where those in the Kingdom are those who are permitted to enter the Holy of Holies and see God Himself, face to face.  Then there's another area where believers / worshippers were permitted, but could not enter the Holy of Holies.  These would be people who are "justified", who are friends with God and who honor and revere and respect and love Him in a natural way, with analogues of the supernatural virtues.  Then there was an "Outer Courtyard" where those who weren't of evil intention could go, and this might be were people who were neither good nor bad would end up, and the of course outside the walls would be the outer darkness, and Hell.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2685
    • Reputation: +1358/-303
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #194 on: December 11, 2025, 07:45:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, there is no contradiction. Because as Pius IX says those with "invincible ignorance about our most holy religion...are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace." And God's "supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

    It is not heretical for me to say it, just as it was not heretical for Pius IX to say it.
    Divine light and grace refers to baptism/the Catholic faith. The very same Pope has a another docuмent where he uses the same terminology and makes it more clear. You are choosing to interprete his words in a way that is contrary to Catholic teaching, this is modernism and uncharitable to the Pope.