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Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 39963 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #150 on: December 10, 2025, 10:56:05 PM »
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  • Angelus, you make Pius IX into a heretic by claiming he taught what he did not actually teach. What you claim he teaches contradicts Church Dogma as it has "once been declared" (again, ~8 times). So, please, stop.
    Read what the Church has infallibly taught regarding salvation first, and then apply it to what Pius IX taught. You will not misintepret him that way. You are going in the opposite order, taking your misinterpretation of Pius IX and applying it to Church Dogma. That is what leads to what you originally posted in this thread, which was a word-for-word denial of the Dogma. Please, read what has infallibly been taught regarding EENS. We must keep the faith "whole and undefiled" or we will, without doubt, perish eternally

    As I've tried other explain to you, Pius IX and I have not misinterpreted the dogma. You have. Those who are "invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion" AND who follow "the natural law... illumined by divine light and grace" in their moral actions, will not "suffer eternal punishments." Those are the exact words of Pius IX.

    That does not mean that there will be many people "attain eternal life" in the way the Pius IX describes. I don't know for sure, of course. But I would guess there are very few people. Think of Abel and Lot and Noah. Very, very few men live their lives in the way required by the "invincible ignorance" teaching. 

    I don't know what you are worried about. God has his own plan. His Pope Pius IX, we can trust, had a good idea of what his plan is. So trust him.

    Keep telling people that there is no "salvation" outside the Church. When you do that, you are not talking to the "invincibly ignorant" that Pius IX was referring to. You are talking to people who will be culpable if they alienate themselves from the One True Church.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #151 on: December 10, 2025, 11:59:55 PM »
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  • .  You can't be justified OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH.  Any justification happens ONLY IN THE CHURCH.  So if this person repented, HE WAS FORGIVEN BY THE CHURCH and Christ's merits.  Thus, he was saved INSIDE THE CHURCH.

    ---
    Just to derail a bit, that means justification by desire or justification by bƖσσdshɛd does not occur.

    Earlier you said
    Quote
    And...this also does NOT apply to the unbaptized. NO unbaptized person can "repent enough" to gain baptism. They can repent and receive God's forgiveness, but if they die unbaptized, they go to Limbo.
    So is this unbaptised person justified since they go to limbo?


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #152 on: December 11, 2025, 12:37:16 AM »
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  • As I've tried other explain to you, Pius IX and I have not misinterpreted the dogma. 

    It's been demonstrated and mansplained to your wretched heretically-depraved mind that YOU MISINTERPRET PIUS IX and would make him a Pelagian heretic like yourself.  Stop trying to pretend that Pius IX supports your heresy.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #153 on: December 11, 2025, 12:49:12 AM »
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  • Just to derail a bit, that means justification by desire or justification by bƖσσdshɛd does not occur.

    Earlier you saidSo is this unbaptised person justified since they go to limbo?

    These are questions that it might be worth discussing among those of good will here to believe the Church's dogmatic teaching on EENS, and we should stop wasting our time on trolling heretics like Angelus.

    Just as St. Thomas Aquinas fully articulated the distinction between natural punishment / natural happiness, rooted in justice, and supernatural beatitude in the Kingdom, something above human nature, which, being owed to no one and not required for happiness, there would be no injustice in not granting it, since it's a completely free gift ...

    similarly, I believe that there's confusion between a natural justification and a supernatural one, where infants in Limbo, for instance, are not in a "state of grace", meaning that they do NOT possess the supernatural virtues of faith, hope, and charity (where of course only charity remains in eternity, as the Holy Ghost teaches through St. Paul).

    Since these innocent souls have committed no actual sin, they are not in a state of enmity with God, which is usually what's contrasted with justification, except that what people often mean by justification is ... being in a state of grace, and they're not in that state either.  So they're neither justified nor non-justified.  They're in a sort of natural friendship with God, where they believe in Him, obey Him, assent to His truths and to the law He has written in their hearts (the natural law) ... in a natural way only, since they do not and cannot have supernatural faith and supernatural charity.

    So when Pax says there can be no justification except in the Church, he's assuming the definition where justification means being in a state of grace and having the supernatural virutes, in which sense he's correct.  BUT ... that does not mean there can't be a certain NATURAL type of justificaiton, a natural friendship with God.  That is where the post-Tridentine theologian Melchior Cano, OP stated that infidels can be justified but not saved, where he's referring to a type of justification that can be achieved short of having the supernatural virtues, since infidels, lacking faith, cannot have the supernatural virtues.  Theologians who discussed Trent on Justification stated that there are natural virtues they they call "fides initialis", "caritas initalis", "spes initialis", which are in fact natural analoguest to the respective supernatural virtues, and they can in fact develop these natural virtues, the natural equivalents of the supernatural ones by the same name, nay, they MUST develop these natural virtues in order to be led to the very point of receiving the SUPERNATURAL ones, which then only happens at the actual reception of the Sacrament of Baptism, which confers the supernatural virutes ex opere operato.  So while these natural virute are necessary dispositions to receive the freely-given unmerited supernatural equivalents, they do not somehow natural lead to, transition into or somehow merit the gift of the supernatural ones.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #154 on: December 11, 2025, 04:41:31 AM »
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  • As I've tried other explain to you, Pius IX and I have not misinterpreted the dogma. You have. Those who are "invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion" AND who follow "the natural law... illumined by divine light and grace" in their moral actions, will not "suffer eternal punishments." Those are the exact words of Pius IX.

    That does not mean that there will be many people "attain eternal life" in the way the Pius IX describes. I don't know for sure, of course. But I would guess there are very few people. Think of Abel and Lot and Noah. Very, very few men live their lives in the way required by the "invincible ignorance" teaching.



    Quote
    2 Corinthians 4:3 And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost



    Quote
    Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council, Sess. 3, Chap. 2 on Revelation, 1870, ex cathedra: “Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding.

    For the last time, Pius IX did not teach what you think he did. If he did teach what you think he did, he would have taught heresy. But he didn't. Pius IX said of "those who are struggling with invincibly ignorance about our most holy religion" that they "are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace". As they are ("struggling" in invinc. ignorance, or, "living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity") they cannot attain salvation, but they are able to do so because God will provide the means for them to be instructed in the faith. Pius IX did not deny the Dogma:

    Quote
    For ‘there is one universal Church outside of which no one at all is saved; it contains regular and secular prelates along with those under their jurisdiction, who all profess one Lord, one faith and one baptism.”

    Pope Pius IX, Ubi primum

    Quote
    For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains, ‘we shall see God as He is’ (1 John 3:2), we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is ‘one God, one faith, one baptism’ [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadam


    The Dogma, "once declared" infallibly:

    Quote
    Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”


    Quote
    Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
    “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”
    Quote
    Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
    “Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”
    Quote
    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
    “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”
    Quote
    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
    Quote
    Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
    “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.”
    Quote
    Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, “Iniunctum nobis,” Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…

    Quote
    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…


    And other Popes on EENS:

    Quote
    Pope St. Gregory the Great, quoted in Summo Iugiter Studio, 590-604:
    “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.”
    Quote
    Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208:
    “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”
    Quote
    Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351:
    “In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience to the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.”
    Quote
    Pope St. Pius V, Bull excommunicating the heretic Queen Elizabeth of England, Feb. 25, 1570: “The sovereign jurisdiction of the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, has been given by Him [Jesus Christ], unto Whom all power in Heaven and on Earth is given, the King who reigns on high, but to one person on the face of the Earth, to Peter, prince of the Apostles... If any shall contravene this Our decree, we bind them with the same bond of anathema.


    Quote
    Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14), May 5, 1824:
    “It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.
    Quote
    Pope Leo XII, Quod hoc ineunte (# 8), May 24, 1824: “We address all of you who are still removed from the true Church and the road to salvation. In this universal rejoicing, one thing is lacking: that having been called by the inspiration of the Heavenly Spirit and having broken every decisive snare, you might sincerely agree with the mother Church, outside of whose teachings there is no salvation.


    Quote
    Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: “With the admonition of the apostle, that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate (Athanasian Creed).”


    Quote
    Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:
    “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.”
    Quote
    Pope Pius IX, Nostis et Nobiscuм (# 10), Dec. 8, 1849: “In particular, ensure that the faithful are deeply and thoroughly convinced of the truth of the doctrine that the Catholic faith is necessary for attaining salvation. (This doctrine, received from Christ and emphasized by the Fathers and Councils, is also contained in the formulae of the profession of faith used by Latin, Greek and Oriental Catholics

    Quote
    Pope Leo XIII, Tametsi futura prospicientibus (# 7), Nov. 1, 1900: “Christ is man’s ‘Way’; the Church also is his ‘Way’… Hence all who would find salvation apart from the Church, are led astray and strive in vain


    Quote
    Pope St. Pius X, Iucunda sane (# 9), March 12, 1904: “Yet at the same time We cannot but remind all, great and small, as Pope St. Gregory did, of the absolute necessity of having recourse to this Church in order to have eternal salvation…”

    Quote
    Pope St. Pius X, Editae saepe (# 29), May 26, 1910: “The Church alone possesses together with her magisterium the power of governing and sanctifying human society. Through her ministers and servants (each in his own station and office), she confers on mankind suitable and necessary means of salvation.”

    Quote
    Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 11), Jan. 6, 1928: “The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation.


    IF, God forbid, Pius IX taught what you say he did, you would have to REJECT IT. What you THINK Pius IX taught IS CONTRARY TO THE DOGMA.

    You misinterpret his words, insist that this misinterpretation creates some "slight modification" to the Dogma, a "valid" "development" of the Dogma, yet you end up DENYING THE DOGMA WORD-FOR-WORD


    Pope Eugene IV says, "all those who are outside the Church...cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels"

    You say, "not all who are outside the Church will burn in hell forever and never make it to paradise".

    Pope Eugene IV: all those who are outside the Church...will go into the everlasting fire
    Angelus: not all who are outside the Church will burn in hell forever
    Pope Eugene IV: all those who are outside the Church...cannot share in eternal life
    Angelus: not all who are outside the Church...will never make it to heaven

    READ WHAT THE CHURCH HAS TAUGHT. BELIEVE IT AS "ONCE DECLARED". PROFESS IT AS "ONCE DECLARED" OR YOU CANNOT BE SAVED
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Everlast22

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #155 on: December 11, 2025, 06:55:02 AM »
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  • I think we need to understand the dogmas and hard teachings are for US here on earth.. Not for us to speculate extraordinary circuмstances of God's mercy. That's not for us to worry about, and it's dangerous to the mind of someone who may be contemplating Catholicism.. (and Catholics apparently ::))  See how the well can be poisoned?

    How many that are baptized and taught in the Catholic faith go to Hell? Most... Unfortunately. Was God not fair to them?

    I'm pretty sure Limbo or "paradise without the existence of God without eternal punishment" is infinitely better than punishment in Hell. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #156 on: December 11, 2025, 08:38:16 AM »
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  • Abraham lived prior to the revelation of the divine law, given to Moses. He and people of the Age of the Patriarchs (aka Fathers) lived according to the natural law illumined by the divine grace. The pagans who are/were "invincibly ignorant of our holy religion," the Catholic faith, AND also live/lived according to the natural law illumined the divine grace.

    As Pius IX said, "Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency does not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."
     By Divine Law, you mean Moses and the 10 commandments?  You think the Israelites and others before Moses didn’t know about the moral law?  

    You're denying God's revelation to Adam/Eve of a coming Redeemer, which ALL THE FATHERS knew of, prior to Moses.  Adam, Noe, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc.  

    These were not pagans or comparable to pagans.  You should be ashamed.  

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #157 on: December 11, 2025, 08:40:41 AM »
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  • For the last time, Pius IX did not teach what you think he did. If he did teach what you think he did, he would have taught heresy. But he didn't. Pius IX said of "those who are struggling with invincibly ignorance about our most holy religion" that they "are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace". As they are ("struggling" in invinc. ignorance, or, "living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity") they cannot attain salvation, but they are able to do so because God will provide the means for them to be instructed in the faith. Pius IX did not deny the Dogma:


    The Dogma, "once declared" infallibly:



    And other Popes on EENS:






    IF, God forbid, Pius IX taught what you say he did, you would have to REJECT IT. What you THINK Pius IX taught IS CONTRARY TO THE DOGMA.

    You misinterpret his words, insist that this misinterpretation creates some "slight modification" to the Dogma, a "valid" "development" of the Dogma, yet you end up DENYING THE DOGMA WORD-FOR-WORD


    Pope Eugene IV says, "all those who are outside the Church...cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels"

    You say, "not all who are outside the Church will burn in hell forever and never make it to paradise".

    Pope Eugene IV: all those who are outside the Church...will go into the everlasting fire
    Angelus: not all who are outside the Church will burn in hell forever
    Pope Eugene IV: all those who are outside the Church...cannot share in eternal life
    Angelus: not all who are outside the Church...will never make it to heaven

    READ WHAT THE CHURCH HAS TAUGHT. BELIEVE IT AS "ONCE DECLARED". PROFESS IT AS "ONCE DECLARED" OR YOU CANNOT BE SAVED

    As I have tried to tell you over and over again, the Dogma of EENS hinges on a single concept: culpability of the actor.

    1. A culpable actor is punished. A non-culpable actor is not punished. Meditate on that. 

    2. Salvation means saved from punishment...all punishment. 

    3. A person "invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion" is NOT culpable for not joining that holy religion.

    4. So, EENS in its proper understanding does not apply to those "invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion" precisely because they are innocent. Innocent people do not get punished.

    5. But "salvation" in Catholic theology is through Christ alone. So a person who does not know Christ cannot be "saved."

    6. But this does not prevent someone who does not know Christ, through no fault of their own, from going to an eternal abode that is both free of punishment but still lacking the fullness of the Beatific Vision. That place is a variation on the concept of Limbo. That was the purpose of Abraham's Bosom in the OT, and Aquinas says nothing prevents that from still existing after Christ.

    So, it is not necessary to gut or destroy EENS in order to fit the "invincibly ignorant" into Catholic theology. They are not "saved" in the sense immediately seeing the Beatific Vision. That is reserved for Saints alone. But they are not punished, because just like infants burdened with original sin through no fault of their own, these "invincibly ignorant" people above the age of reason are burdened with original sin through no fault of their own. 

    In the years prior to 1492, there was no Catholic priest who visited the Western Hemisphere. So your idea that God is going to send the pagans a priest is impossible. That is clearly not what Pius IX was suggesting. He is not stupid.

    So EENS stands firm, even with the notation on the "invincibly ignorant" attached to it. Invicible ignorance does not apply to the enormous number of "vincibly ignorant" people in our day to ignore the Gospel. 



    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #158 on: December 11, 2025, 08:54:54 AM »
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  • These are questions that it might be worth discussing among those of good will here to believe the Church's dogmatic teaching on EENS, and we should stop wasting our time on trolling heretics like Angelus.

    Just as St. Thomas Aquinas fully articulated the distinction between natural punishment / natural happiness, rooted in justice, and supernatural beatitude in the Kingdom, something above human nature, which, being owed to no one and not required for happiness, there would be no injustice in not granting it, since it's a completely free gift ...

    similarly, I believe that there's confusion between a natural justification and a supernatural one, where infants in Limbo, for instance, are not in a "state of grace", meaning that they do NOT possess the supernatural virtues of faith, hope, and charity (where of course only charity remains in eternity, as the Holy Ghost teaches through St. Paul).

    Since these innocent souls have committed no actual sin, they are not in a state of enmity with God, which is usually what's contrasted with justification, except that what people often mean by justification is ... being in a state of grace, and they're not in that state either.  So they're neither justified nor non-justified.  They're in a sort of natural friendship with God, where they believe in Him, obey Him, assent to His truths and to the law He has written in their hearts (the natural law) ... in a natural way only, since they do not and cannot have supernatural faith and supernatural charity.

    So when Pax says there can be no justification except in the Church, he's assuming the definition where justification means being in a state of grace and having the supernatural virutes, in which sense he's correct.  BUT ... that does not mean there can't be a certain NATURAL type of justificaiton, a natural friendship with God.  That is where the post-Tridentine theologian Melchior Cano, OP stated that infidels can be justified but not saved, where he's referring to a type of justification that can be achieved short of having the supernatural virtues, since infidels, lacking faith, cannot have the supernatural virtues.  Theologians who discussed Trent on Justification stated that there are natural virtues they they call "fides initialis", "caritas initalis", "spes initialis", which are in fact natural analoguest to the respective supernatural virtues, and they can in fact develop these natural virtues, the natural equivalents of the supernatural ones by the same name, nay, they MUST develop these natural virtues in order to be led to the very point of receiving the SUPERNATURAL ones, which then only happens at the actual reception of the Sacrament of Baptism, which confers the supernatural virutes ex opere operato.  So while these natural virute are necessary dispositions to receive the freely-given unmerited supernatural equivalents, they do not somehow natural lead to, transition into or somehow merit the gift of the supernatural ones.

    Yes, you are saying something similar to what I have been saying. Culpability/Innocence is the key to understanding EENS. The threat of EENS only applies to those who are culpable. EENS does not apply to those who are innocent of their error because their error comes from "invincible ignorance."

    And, even though you want to falsely call my position Pelagian (which it is not, as I have demonstrated), your discussion of natural justification does lean into Pelagianism because of your binary separation of natural and supernatural. 

    Pius IX (and I following him) avoid that untenable dichotomy that invites the charge of Pelagianism which the bolded words below:

    "Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace."

    Pius IX makes it crystal clear, against the Pelagians, that the "eternal life" does not come through some kind of non-supernatural following of the natural law. No, the "eternal life" is EFFECTED by "virtue of divine light and grace."

    So, while most of what you said above is generally correct, you need to clarify that you do not mean "natural" as something completely bereft of the "supernatural" because, again, that would be Pelagianism.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #159 on: December 11, 2025, 09:01:15 AM »
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  • As I have tried to tell you over and over again, the Dogma of EENS hinges on a single concept: culpability of the actor.

    1. A culpable actor is punished. A non-culpable actor is not punished. Meditate on that.

    2. Salvation means saved from punishment...all punishment.

    3. A person "invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion" is NOT culpable for not joining that holy religion.

    4. So, EENS in its proper understanding does not apply to those "invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion" precisely because they are innocent. Innocent people do not get punished.

    5. But "salvation" in Catholic theology is through Christ alone. So a person who does not know Christ cannot be "saved."

    6. But this does not prevent someone who does not know Christ, through no fault of their own, from going to an eternal abode that is both free of punishment but still lacking the fullness of the Beatific Vision. That place is a variation on the concept of Limbo. That was the purpose of Abraham's Bosom in the OT, and Aquinas says nothing prevents that from still existing after Christ.

    So, it is not necessary to gut or destroy EENS in order to fit the "invincibly ignorant" into Catholic theology. They are not "saved" in the sense immediately seeing the Beatific Vision. That is reserved for Saints alone. But they are not punished, because just like infants burdened with original sin through no fault of their own, these "invincibly ignorant" people above the age of reason are burdened with original sin through no fault of their own.

    In the years prior to 1492, there was no Catholic priest who visited the Western Hemisphere. So your idea that God is going to send the pagans a priest is impossible. That is clearly not what Pius IX was suggesting. He is not stupid.

    So EENS stands firm, even with the notation on the "invincibly ignorant" attached to it. Invicible ignorance does not apply to the enormous number of "vincibly ignorant" people in our day to ignore the Gospel.
    No, your #2 is wrong.  Salvation = a reward. 

    a.  Hell = punishment
    b.  Limbo = no punishment, no reward
    c.  Heaven = reward


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #160 on: December 11, 2025, 09:05:35 AM »
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  • By Divine Law, you mean Moses and the 10 commandments?  You think the Israelites and others before Moses didn’t know about the moral law? 

    You're denying God's revelation to Adam/Eve of a coming Redeemer, which ALL THE FATHERS knew of, prior to Moses.  Adam, Noe, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. 

    These were not pagans or comparable to pagans.  You should be ashamed. 

    Are you serious? Yes, I am certain that the Isrealites, prior to Moses, to Moses did not have the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments were given by God, for the first time, to Moses. That is what is known as the Divine Law.

    The moral law that existed prior to Moses and still today is what is referred to as "the natural law." It is a minimal subset of the precepts of the Divine Law. 

    The natural law, however, is not without a supernatural component. As Aquinas explains, the Natural Law participates in the Eternal Law that God infused into all creatures when he created them. Man was infused with reason, unlike the other animals. Man and only man, through his reason, can know the Natural Law. Adam and Eve knew the natural law, which, again, participates in the Eternal Law.

    Today we call pagans those who do not practice the true religion. The Patriarchs had no experience of the true religion beyond the Natural Law and special revelations given to particular people like Adam/Eve, Noah, Abraham etc. Those private revelations given to those people were very limited. They did not contain the fulness of the true religion.



    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #161 on: December 11, 2025, 09:07:30 AM »
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  • No, your #2 is wrong.  Salvation = a reward. 

    a.  Hell = punishment
    b.  Limbo = no punishment, no reward
    c.  Heaven = reward

    Yes, salvation is both freedom from punishment and the highest reward: the beatific vision. I did mention that later in what I said.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #162 on: December 11, 2025, 09:08:38 AM »
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  • These are questions that it might be worth discussing among those of good will here to believe the Church's dogmatic teaching on EENS, and we should stop wasting our time on trolling heretics like Angelus.

    Just as St. Thomas Aquinas fully articulated the distinction between natural punishment / natural happiness, rooted in justice, and supernatural beatitude in the Kingdom, something above human nature, which, being owed to no one and not required for happiness, there would be no injustice in not granting it, since it's a completely free gift ...

    similarly, I believe that there's confusion between a natural justification and a supernatural one, where infants in Limbo, for instance, are not in a "state of grace", meaning that they do NOT possess the supernatural virtues of faith, hope, and charity (where of course only charity remains in eternity, as the Holy Ghost teaches through St. Paul).

    Since these innocent souls have committed no actual sin, they are not in a state of enmity with God, which is usually what's contrasted with justification, except that what people often mean by justification is ... being in a state of grace, and they're not in that state either.  So they're neither justified nor non-justified.  They're in a sort of natural friendship with God, where they believe in Him, obey Him, assent to His truths and to the law He has written in their hearts (the natural law) ... in a natural way only, since they do not and cannot have supernatural faith and supernatural charity.

    So when Pax says there can be no justification except in the Church, he's assuming the definition where justification means being in a state of grace and having the supernatural virutes, in which sense he's correct.  BUT ... that does not mean there can't be a certain NATURAL type of justificaiton, a natural friendship with God.  That is where the post-Tridentine theologian Melchior Cano, OP stated that infidels can be justified but not saved, where he's referring to a type of justification that can be achieved short of having the supernatural virtues, since infidels, lacking faith, cannot have the supernatural virtues.  Theologians who discussed Trent on Justification stated that there are natural virtues they they call "fides initialis", "caritas initalis", "spes initialis", which are in fact natural analoguest to the respective supernatural virtues, and they can in fact develop these natural virtues, the natural equivalents of the supernatural ones by the same name, nay, they MUST develop these natural virtues in order to be led to the very point of receiving the SUPERNATURAL ones, which then only happens at the actual reception of the Sacrament of Baptism, which confers the supernatural virutes ex opere operato.  So while these natural virute are necessary dispositions to receive the freely-given unmerited supernatural equivalents, they do not somehow natural lead to, transition into or somehow merit the gift of the supernatural ones.
    Yeah, my understanding is there are 2 types of justification.  Natural and supernatural.  A pagan can repent and be forgiven.  They are naturally justified.  A Catholic confesses to a priest and they are supernaturally justified (ie state of grace).  Which is why I asked Angelus to stop using “justification” for Catholics and use “state of grace”.  But he won’t.  Because he likes to play word games.  That’s how he keeps his conscience quiet due to his mental gymnastics.  

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #163 on: December 11, 2025, 09:13:18 AM »
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  • As I have tried to tell you over and over again, the Dogma of EENS hinges on a single concept: culpability of the actor.
    You beg the question that anyone at all who follows the natural law dies invincibly ignorant. That is not what Pius IX said. Aquinas proposed that they will be instructed in the faith prior to death

    Quote
    2 Corinthians 4:3 And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost

    At the time of the apostles it was taught that the Gospel had  been preached to the ends of the Earth:

    Quote
    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
    10:15 And how shall they preach unless they be sent, as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things?
    10:16 But all do not obey the gospel. For Isaias saith: Lord, who hath believed our report?
    10:17 Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.
    10:18 But I say: Have they not heard? Yes, verily: Their sound hath gone forth into all the earth: and their words unto the ends of the whole world.
    Quote
    1 Thessalonians 1:4 Knowing, brethren, beloved of God, your election:
    1:5 For our gospel hath not been unto you in word only, but in power also: and in the Holy Ghost and in much fulness, as you know what manner of men we have been among you for your sakes.
    1:6 And you became followers of us and of the Lord: receiving the word in much tribulation, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
    1:7 So that you were made a pattern to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.
    1:8 For from you was spread abroad the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and in Achaia but also in every place: your faith which is towards God, is gone forth, so that we need not to speak any thing.
    Quote
    Colossians 1:4 Hearing your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have towards all the saints.
    1:5 For the hope that is laid up for you in heaven, which you have heard in the word of the truth of the gospel,
    1:6 Which is come unto you, as also it is in the whole world and bringeth forth fruit and groweth, even as it doth in you, since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth.
    Quote
    Colossians 1:23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven: whereof I Paul am made a minister.

    Quote
    Acts 2:47 Praising God and having favour with all the people. And the Lord increased daily together such as should be saved

    You deny the Dogma:

    Pope Eugene IV: "all those who are outside the Church...cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels"

    You: "not all who are outside the Church will burn in hell forever and never make it to paradise"

    You say those who die outside the Church can "make it to paradise". "Paradise" is the Kingdom of Heaven, the Beatific Vision. None of those outside of the Church can partake in it

    Read the Athanasian creed as "once declared", believe it, and then profess it. 

    You must convert to the Catholic Faith if you wish to be saved


    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #164 on: December 11, 2025, 09:47:55 AM »
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  • You beg the question that anyone at all who follows the natural law dies invincibly ignorant. That is not what Pius IX said. Aquinas proposed that they will be instructed in the faith prior to death

    At the time of the apostles it was taught that the Gospel had  been preached to the ends of the Earth:

    You deny the Dogma:

    Pope Eugene IV: "all those who are outside the Church...cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels"

    You: "not all who are outside the Church will burn in hell forever and never make it to paradise"

    You say those who die outside the Church can "make it to paradise". "Paradise" is the Kingdom of Heaven, the Beatific Vision. None of those outside of the Church can partake in it

    Read the Athanasian creed as "once declared", believe it, and then profess it.

    You must convert to the Catholic Faith if you wish to be saved

    Why do you feel the need to lie? I never said "that anyone at all who follows the natural law dies invincibly ignorant." Here is my exact quote:

    "Those who are "invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion" AND who follow "the natural law... illumined by divine light and grace" in their moral actions, will not "suffer eternal punishments." [https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/possible-strict-eens-chapel/msg1010037/#msg1010037]

    You may not realize that the word AND acts as a logical conjunction of the two thoughts. Therefore, in order to avoid "eternal punishments" the person must be BOTH "invincibly ignorant" AND "follow the natural law"...illuminated "by divine light and grace." 

    You must understand the "natural law," Thomistically understood, is not supernaturally barren. The "natural law" is defined as human reason participating in God's eternal law. So it contains a supernatural element. But Pius IX makes this explicit to avoid any possibility of misinterpretation by those who would call his teaching Pelagianism.

    And you really can't be serious. Do you really think at the time of the Apostles the Gospel had already been preached to the "ends of the Earth?" You might want to check with the Church teaches on that. Have you ever heard of Jesus's Olivet Discourse in which he states that just before his Second Coming the Gospel "shall be preached in the whole world and then shall the consummation come (Matthew 24:14)."