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Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 12912 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #105 on: December 10, 2025, 01:00:54 PM »
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  • Do you use the Church's judgement in the external forum to decide the fate of the dead man? If so, it would seem that you would conclude that the man is in everlasting Hell.

    Oh, just stop it already, where you have to say "everlasting" Hell, and not just Hell, as if everybody else doesn't know what the latter term means ... to justify the prior nonsense about Purgatory being a temporary Hell vs the other Hell, which is everlasting.  If you had simply used the word Hell, NOBODY would have asked you to qualify it by asking, "By Hell, do you mean EVERLASTING Hell or do you mean Purgatory, i.e. the temporary Hell?"

    :facepalm:

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #106 on: December 10, 2025, 01:09:03 PM »
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  • God is God. If He wants to do secret and hidden things concerning "secret and hidden members" and their salvation - that is really His business, not ours (before someone jumps all over me, I am only using those terms because we lack the definitive theological precision as ruled on by he highest authority concerning this topic - all the nuances, etc.)

    Yes, I agree, we need to both use EENS as a warning to those who are currently outside the Church, and, at the same time, we need to caution against using EENS as a tool for deciding who is in everlasting Hell.

    The former is necessary for the salvation of souls. The latter is above our pay grade.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #107 on: December 10, 2025, 01:23:05 PM »
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  • Yes, that is an excellent quote. And Pius IX goes far beyond the scenario that I mentioned. Anyone familiar with EENS want to comment on what he said here:

    "There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

    Do any of the people here think Pius IX taught heresy in that statement? If not, why not? Do all the people commenting on this thread accept the concept of "invincible ignorance" as a limitation of EENS? He seems to open up the possibility that "invincibly ignorant" Pagans could "attain eternal life."

    So, only the malicious interpret this teaching as some justification of BoD.  Pius IX himself during his lifetime got wind of how people were interpreting this, i.e. according to the same interpretation you impose on it here by reading your heretical anti-EENS perspective into it ... and he was furious, denouncing it as wicked slander.

    By interpreting it the way you claim, you would make Pius IX a Pelagian, and also a heretical denier of the fact that supernatural faith is required for salvation, that merely not having committed actual sin is tantamount to salvation, having forgotten entirely, as the Pelagians do, about Original Sin. 

    What he's saying is confirming the principles behind the theory of Limbo, where infants, precisely because they had not committed actual sin are not subject to any eternal punishments.  Simply not receiving the Beatific Vision is NOT a punishment, or in Latin even more precisely a poena, or infraction, which always suggests having done something to deserve it.

    What he says at the end is almost identical also to what St. Thomas said, that if there is someone out there who's invincibly ignorant and has not committed any actual sins or done anything that would impede the action of God's grace, God would send an angel if necessary to enlighten them.  St. Thomas did NOT say they could be saved in that state, since he affirmed that explicit knowledge of the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for salvation ... but in fact indicated that it's SO necessary to have the faith that God would send the angel to instruct this individual in the faith.  That's all that Pius IX is saying.

    I personally have speculated that in addition to infants being in Limbo, there might be others there, such as unbaptized martyrs, where the martyrdom had washed them of any punishment due to sin, so that they would no longer be liable to punishment for actual sin, and even possibly some others who lived lives consistent with natural virtue, with each soul having a measure of happiness and/or unhappiness that corresponds precisely to the punishment due for their sins or else any virtuous acts that may have served to expiate these, at least in so far as their requiring punishment.  This is what St. Ambrose meant by his expression that unbaptized martyrs are "washed but not crowned".

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #108 on: December 10, 2025, 01:58:27 PM »
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  • Yes. This is how I understand it as well.

    God will always provide the necessary graces for those whom He knows will be saved.

    They must enter the Church (in some way) before death, but the answer to how is still in the speculative stages.

    (remember I linked you this already: https://archive.org/details/necessityofchurc0000king)
    In there you can see clearly that there has been "development of doctrine" on this point and this was ongoing right through Vatican II.

    No one should be called "heretic" for holding the same opinions that were tolerated by the Church for centuries w/o being officially condemned.
    Neither should one be called "heretic" for choosing NOT to hold those opinions (not saying you did either of those).

    It is similar to what happened between the Molinists and Thomists concerning the debate on grace.

    The Pope simply said (paraphrasing), "You cannot call each other heretics, both opinions may be tolerated". and he left it at that.

    The problem we keep encountering is displayed by what this whole thread has devolved into - the secret and hidden judgments of God and we are, "not allowed to proceed further."

    God is God. If He wants to do secret and hidden things concerning "secret and hidden members" and their salvation - that is really His business, not ours (before someone jumps all over me, I am only using those terms because we lack the definitive theological precision as ruled on by he highest authority concerning this topic - all the nuances, etc.)

    We will not unravel all the answers to these questions because;

    A) Even if we think we have found the definitive answer on all these things - we have no Pope to decide on it, so it still remains just an opinion.
    B) Even if we did have a Pope he could just do what he did with the debate on grace and tell us all to "let it alone".

    It will always be the true teaching to be saved one must, repent and believe in the Gospel, be baptized and hold/live the faith - and there is, "no salvation outside the Church."

    One cannot be obligated to hold these speculative opinions under penalty of the censure of heresy.
    Neither can one be obligated to shun them as if they were already condemned.

    Anything past that is God's wheelhouse and we will just have to wait for eternity to learn a little more.

    There is no contradiction in God, but man is full of and prone to contradiction.

    Man rushes to judgement, chops and hacks at his fellows, shows little to no mercy, and thinks himself wise all the while. :facepalm:
    Right, theorizing that God would provide the means for the "invincibly ignorant" to become Catholic prior to death is fine

    Saying that Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc. can be saved as Jews Hindus, Muslims, etc. in their false religions is heretical. It is contrary to Dogma (the teaching of Eugene IV at Florence, as one example)

     ^^This is what the majority of trads and trad clerics do. That is the major issue here
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #109 on: December 10, 2025, 02:06:10 PM »
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  • So, only the malicious interpret this teaching as some justification of BoD.  Pius IX himself during his lifetime got wind of how people were interpreting this, i.e. according to the same interpretation you impose on it here by reading your heretical anti-EENS perspective into it ... and he was furious, denouncing it as wicked slander.

    By interpreting it the way you claim, you would make Pius IX a Pelagian, and also a heretical denier of the fact that supernatural faith is required for salvation, that merely not having committed actual sin is tantamount to salvation, having forgotten entirely, as the Pelagians do, about Original Sin. 

    What he's saying is confirming the principles behind the theory of Limbo, where infants, precisely because they had not committed actual sin are not subject to any eternal punishments.  Simply not receiving the Beatific Vision is NOT a punishment, or in Latin even more precisely a poena, or infraction, which always suggests having done something to deserve it.

    What he says at the end is almost identical also to what St. Thomas said, that if there is someone out there who's invincibly ignorant and has not committed any actual sins or done anything that would impede the action of God's grace, God would send an angel if necessary to enlighten them.  St. Thomas did NOT say they could be saved in that state, since he affirmed that explicit knowledge of the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for salvation ... but in fact indicated that it's SO necessary to have the faith that God would send the angel to instruct this individual in the faith.  That's all that Pius IX is saying.

    I personally have speculated that in addition to infants being in Limbo, there might be others there, such as unbaptized martyrs, where the martyrdom had washed them of any punishment due to sin, so that they would no longer be liable to punishment for actual sin, and even possibly some others who lived lives consistent with natural virtue, with each soul having a measure of happiness and/or unhappiness that corresponds precisely to the punishment due for their sins or else any virtuous acts that may have served to expiate these, at least in so far as their requiring punishment.  This is what St. Ambrose meant by his expression that unbaptized martyrs are "washed but not crowned".

    No I don't make Pius IX a Pelagian. Why? Because in his quote he says the "invincibly ignorant...are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace." Pelagianism teaches that the person can attain his reward by his own efforts. I never suggested that. And Pius IX never suggested that.

    Pius IX makes it clear in that quote that anyone who is included in the "invincibly ignorant" who "attain eternal life" can only be in that category by "divine light and grace."

    And his statement has nothing to do with the limbo of children. He says:

    "There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace."

    Infants don't struggle with invincible ignorance about religion. They are little babies without the use of reason. And infants don't observe the natural law and get credit for doing so like the people Pius IX is referring to.

    The subject that Pius IX is discussing was discussed by St. Paul in Romans 2:

    "11 For there is no respect of persons with God.  12 For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law.  13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.  14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:  15 Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another, 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."


    You can read Aquinas's commentary on that passage here: https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~Rom.C2.L3




    Online SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #110 on: December 10, 2025, 02:31:57 PM »
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  • Saying that Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc. can be saved as Jews Hindus, Muslims, etc. in their false religions is heretical. It is contrary to Dogma (the teaching of Eugene IV at Florence, as one example)

     ^^This is what the majority of trads and trad clerics do. That is the major issue here
    Yes, I always cringe when I hear, "A good Hindu can be saved in his religion but NOT by his religion, but rather by the merits of Christ, he is mystically united to the Church, perhaps even unbeknownst to himself... (sigh of self-satisfied Modernist relief)".

    You have to go "full retard" to stick to that.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #111 on: December 10, 2025, 03:49:31 PM »
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  • Here is the relevant quote from St. Thomas contra Pelagianism in his commentary on Romans 2:

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~Rom.C2.L3.n216

    216. But the expression by nature causes some difficulty. For it seems to favor the Pelagians, who taught that man could observe all the precepts of the law by his own natural powers.

    Hence by nature should mean nature reformed by grace. For he is speaking of gentiles converted to the faith, who began to obey the moral precepts of the law by the help of Christ’s grace. Or by nature can mean by the natural law showing them what should be done, as in a psalm: there are many who say, ‘who shows us good things?’ The light of your countenance, O Lord, is signed upon us (Ps 4:6), i.e., the light of natural reason, in which is God’s image. All this does not rule out the need of grace to move the affections any more than the knowledge of sin through the law (Rom 3:20) exempts from the need of grace to move the affections.

    217. Third, he shows their worth in that they, having not the law, are a law to themselves, inasmuch as they function as a law to themselves by instructing and inducing themselves to the good, because the Philosopher says: law is a statement laying down an obligation and proceeding from prudence and understanding (Ethics11). Therefore, it is said that the law is not laid down for the just (1 Tim 1:9), who is not compelled by a law outside of him, but for the lawless, who need to be compelled from without.

    It is, of course, the highest level of greatness among men, when they are induced toward the good not by others but by themselves. The second level belongs to those who are induced by others but without force. The third belongs to those who need to be forced to do good. The fourth belongs to those who cannot be directed to the good even by force: in vain have I smitten your children; they took no correction (Jer 2:30).

    So these gentiles (those outside) were converted to the faith (justified) not by hearing about religious laws, whether true ones or false ones. Rather, by were converted to the true faith (justified) by the grace of Christ helping them to obey the natural law written on their hearts. 

    They voluntarily cooperated with the divine grace. It doesn't matter what religion they may have been surrounded by. God chose those people and gave them special graces to come to the true faith. Note he did not say they came to the Church. Remember, these people are described as gentiles (those outside).

    And at the end, Aquinas says that this voluntary choice to follow grace and to keep the moral precepts without a threat of punishment put those men at a higher level in God's eyes than those who simply follow religious laws out of fear or social convention. 


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #112 on: December 10, 2025, 04:11:28 PM »
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  • What is your point?  I honestly don't get what you're debating.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #113 on: December 10, 2025, 04:28:40 PM »
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  • What is your point?  I honestly don't get what you're debating.

    I was sharing the key quote from Aquinas on Romans 2, which related to the quote from Pius IX that was discussed earlier in the thread.

    The Aquinas quote has broader implications for the understanding of "invincible ignorance" in the context of EENS. Since I know there are many people on the forum who care deeply about EENS, I wanted to make sure they saw the quote.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #114 on: December 10, 2025, 04:36:57 PM »
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  • St Thomas' quote has nothing to do with invincible ignorance.  St Thomas explains elsewhere that ignorance is a punishment for sin.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #115 on: December 10, 2025, 05:03:32 PM »
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  • St Thomas' quote has nothing to do with invincible ignorance.  St Thomas explains elsewhere that ignorance is a punishment for sin.

    Yes, it has to do with "invincible ignorance." St. Thomas says,

    217. Third, he shows their worth in that they, having not the law, are a law to themselves....

    The gentiles (those outside) "having not the law," meaning they are IGNORANT of the divine law, are a "law to themselves," meaning they follow the natural law illumined by divine light of grace. They are "invincibly ignorant" of the divine laws given to the Israelites because they were not given those laws. They lived in China or the New World or whatever. 

    And they are only culpable for that which they know. They are not culpable for those things that they cannot know are morally wrong. Why? Again, because they are "invincibly ignorant." What they know is what God Himself has shown them.

    That doesn't mean that they don't do things that are objectively offensive to God. They almost certainly do. But they don't know any better. The natural law is a very minimalistic set of moral precepts. But if they keep those minimal precepts, then God is happy with them because they are IGNORANT of the full set of moral precepts, the divine law.

    Don't worry, the barbarian hordes are not going to overrun the Pearly Gates. Most people do not keep the natural law. Most people (Catholics included) only keep the divine law because they are afraid of going to Hell.




    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #116 on: December 10, 2025, 05:30:11 PM »
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  • Yes, it has to do with "invincible ignorance." St. Thomas says,

    217. Third, he shows their worth in that they, having not the law, are a law to themselves....

    The gentiles (those outside) "having not the law," meaning they are IGNORANT of the divine law, are a "law to themselves," meaning they follow the natural law illumined by divine light of grace. They are "invincibly ignorant" of the divine laws given to the Israelites because they were not given those laws. They lived in China or the New World or whatever.

    And they are only culpable for that which they know. They are not culpable for those things that they cannot know are morally wrong. Why? Again, because they are "invincibly ignorant." What they know is what God Himself has shown them.

    That doesn't mean that they don't do things that are objectively offensive to God. They almost certainly do. But they don't know any better. The natural law is a very minimalistic set of moral precepts. But if they keep those minimal precepts, then God is happy with them because they are IGNORANT of the full set of moral precepts, the divine law.

    Don't worry, the barbarian hordes are not going to overrun the Pearly Gates. Most people do not keep the natural law. Most people (Catholics included) only keep the divine law because they are afraid of going to Hell.
    The moral law is not the same thing as Divine Law.  You're mixing them up together.  That's why you're confused.

    No one (and I mean no one) is ignorant of the moral/natural law, which St John tells us is written on all men's hearts.  John 1 says that Christ enlightens "all men who come into the world".  Invincible ignorance of the natural/moral law is an impossibility (for an adult).

    As for being ignorant of the DIVINE LAW (i.e. Catholic Faith), St Thomas explains that those who are ignorant of this, are so, because of sin.  Ignorance of the Divine Law is a punishment for sin (i.e. not following the moral/natural law).

    Scripture also tells us that a) God will not tempt us beyond our strength and b) God wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth.

    There is NO ONE who DIES invincibly ignorant of the Faith, who lived a life in accordance with the natural law.  This is heresy. 

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #117 on: December 10, 2025, 05:58:45 PM »
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  • There is NO ONE who DIES invincibly ignorant of the Faith, who lived a life in accordance with the natural law.  This is heresy.

    No, I am not confused. But you are.

    Pius IX said:

    "There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

    You said: "There is NO ONE who DIES invincibly ignorant of the Faith, who lived a life in accordance with the natural law.  This is heresy. 

    You directly contradict what Pius IX said. You are saying that Pius IX taught heresy. Are you sure you want to say that? 


    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #118 on: December 10, 2025, 06:08:32 PM »
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  • No, I am not confused. But you are.

    Pius IX said:

    "There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

    You said: "There is NO ONE who DIES invincibly ignorant of the Faith, who lived a life in accordance with the natural law.  This is heresy.

    You directly contradict what Pius IX said. You are saying that Pius IX taught heresy. Are you sure you want to say that?
    You're the one teaching heresy. You just said people can be saved by following the natural law alone :facepalm:

    Pius IX DID NOT teach that those ignorant will die ignorant. I don't know how many times this has to be said:

    Pius IX says that it is a "very grave error" to "believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching."

    He then speaks about those "struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion"...i.e. those living in error, alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity! Those who cannot attain salvation as they are

    He then says those observing the natural law, ready to obey God, and living honest lives are able to attain eternal life "by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace". Again, if you believe EENS you will take this to mean that God will provide those moral "invincibly ignorant" with the opportunity to hear the Gospel (divine light) embrace the faith and enter the Church (divine grace through baptism)




    Belief in the Incarnation and Trinity are necessary for Salvation by a necessity of means. Pope Eugene IV taught this at Florence. The Holy Office repeated it multiple times.

    Pope Pius IX at the Vatican Council teaches that no one is justified without supernatural faith:

    Quote
    Chapter 3 On faith
    Since human beings are totally dependent on God as their creator and lord, and created reason is completely subject to uncreated truth, we are obliged to yield to God the revealer full submission of intellect and will by faith.
    This faith, which is the beginning of human salvation, the catholic church professes to be
    a supernatural virtue,
    by means of which,
    with the grace of God inspiring and assisting us,
    we believe to be true what He has revealed,
    not because we perceive its intrinsic truth by the natural light of reason,
    but because of the authority of God himself, who makes the revelation and can neither deceive nor be deceived.
    Faith, declares the Apostle, is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen [17].
    Nevertheless, in order that the submission of our faith should be in accordance with reason, it was God’s will that there should be linked to the internal assistance of the holy Spirit external indications of his revelation, that is to say divine acts, and
    first and foremost miracles and prophecies,
    which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are
    the most certain signs of revelation and are
    suited to the understanding of all.
    Hence
    Moses
    and the prophets,
    and especially Christ our lord himself,
    worked many absolutely clear miracles and delivered prophecies;
    while of the apostles we read:
    And they went forth and preached every, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it [18] . Again it is written:
    We have the prophetic word made more sure; you will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place [19] .
    Now,
    although the assent of faith is by no means a blind movement of the mind,
    yet no one can accept the gospel preaching
    in the way that is necessary for achieving salvation
    without the inspiration and illumination of the holy Spirit,
    who gives to all facility in accepting and believing the truth [20] .
    And so faith in itself,
    even though it may not work through charity,
    is a gift of God,
    and its operation is a work belonging to the order of salvation,
    in that a person yields true obedience to God himself when he accepts and collaborates with his grace which he could have rejected.
    Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed
    which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition,
    and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed,
    whether by her solemn judgment
    or in her ordinary and universal magisterium.
    Since, then, without faith it is impossible to please God [21] and reach the fellowship of his sons and daughters, it follows that
    no one can ever achieve justification without it,
    neither can anyone attain eternal life unless he or she perseveres in it to the end.
    So that we could fulfil our duty of embracing the true faith and of persevering unwaveringly in it, God, through his only begotten Son,
    founded the church,
    and he endowed his institution with clear notes to the end that she might be recognised by all as the guardian and teacher of the revealed word.
    To the catholic church alone belong all those things, so many and so marvellous, which have been divinely ordained to make for the manifest credibility of the christian faith.

    You really must renounce your heresy that someone can be saved by following the natural law alone
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #119 on: December 10, 2025, 06:10:20 PM »
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  • I said "they won't die".  Pius XII said "they are struggling" which means they are still alive.  Scripture agrees with me.  You're mis-reading Pius XII.