Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel (Read 12908 times)

Angelus · « **Reply #90 on:** December 10, 2025, 11:02:28 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 10, 2025, 10:55:38 AM

The repentant heretic is a formal member. This is just not known exteriorly. The Church only makes decisions based on the external forum.
If you want to be autistic about it, then go ahead.

We agree. A secretly-repentant, formerly-notorious heretic, although he is "justified" in the eyes of God, will not be given a Catholic funeral because the priest or bishop will not consider him to be member of the Catholic Church at the time of his death.

But he will be in a state of "justification" at his death.

So, as I have asked over and over again in this thread, where does this person end up after death? Does he go straight to everlasting fires for ever and ever?

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #91 on:** December 10, 2025, 11:07:25 AM »

No they go to heaven (after purgatory).

SkidRowCatholic · « **Reply #92 on:** December 10, 2025, 11:11:50 AM »

Quote from: Angelus on December 10, 2025, 11:02:28 AM

So, as I have asked over and over again in this thread, where does this person end up after death? Does he go straight to everlasting fires for ever and ever?

Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Pope Pius IX Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 1863

As of right now, I think this is one of the better answers (even though not very precise).

Some of these questions are things we are not meant to know definitively yet, they remain in the field of speculation. But we are also told that we may "proceed no further"

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #93 on:** December 10, 2025, 11:11:55 AM »

Quote from: Angelus on December 10, 2025, 11:02:28 AM

We agree. A secretly-repentant, formerly-notorious heretic, although he is "justified" in the eyes of God, will not be given a Catholic funeral because the priest or bishop will not consider him to be member of the Catholic Church at the time of his death.

But he will be in a state of "justification" at his death.

So, as I have asked over and over again in this thread, where does this person end up after death? Does he go straight to everlasting fires for ever and ever?

The only people who use the term “justified” are those who are talking about Trent/BOD. If you want to continue to use this term, for baptized members, then know that a) you are theoretically correct but b) practically stupid.

That’s why your questions don’t get answered. You’re being a stubborn, hard-head for using terms which (while technically correct) cause confusion.

Angelus · « **Reply #94 on:** December 10, 2025, 11:19:47 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 10, 2025, 11:07:25 AM

No they go to heaven (after purgatory).

I think that is possible. But I also think it is possible that they may go to a kind of Limbo, as discussed by Aquinas.

Here's why. Those who go to Purgatory are part of the Church Suffering and benefit from the indulgences and prayers of the Church. The prayers of the living and Masses are said for them because they were "members" of the Catholic Church. The secretly-repentant, formerly heretical justified soul probably does not receive those benefits as Catholics in Purgatory would.

And even if they could receive those benefits, it would seem more likely that formal members of the Catholic church would be at the front of the line for those graces.

Angelus · « **Reply #95 on:** December 10, 2025, 11:33:30 AM »

Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on December 10, 2025, 11:11:50 AM

Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Pope Pius IX Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 1863

As of right now, I think this is one of the better answers (even though not very precise).

Some of these questions are things we are not meant to know definitively yet, they remain in the field of speculation. But we are also told that we may "proceed no further"

Yes, that is an excellent quote. And Pius IX goes far beyond the scenario that I mentioned. Anyone familiar with EENS want to comment on what he said here:

"There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

Do any of the people here think Pius IX taught heresy in that statement? If not, why not? Do all the people commenting on this thread accept the concept of "invincible ignorance" as a limitation of EENS? He seems to open up the possibility that "invincibly ignorant" Pagans could "attain eternal life."

Angelus · « **Reply #96 on:** December 10, 2025, 11:35:44 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 10, 2025, 11:11:55 AM

The only people who use the term “justified” are those who are talking about Trent/BOD. If you want to continue to use this term, for baptized members, then know that a) you are theoretically correct but b) practically stupid.

That’s why your questions don’t get answered. You’re being a stubborn, hard-head for using terms which (while technically correct) cause confusion.

Yes, my use of the language used by the Fathers of Trent is "practically stupid." Got it.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #97 on:** December 10, 2025, 11:37:09 AM »

Quote

The secretly-repentant, formerly heretical justified soul probably does not receive those benefits as Catholics in Purgatory would.

Wrong. The secretly repentant die as Catholics. They are 100% members. They are 100% Catholic.

A Catholic is a full member. Only Catholics go to heaven. Or purgatory.

There is no such thing as a partial Catholic or partial member IN ETERNITY. YOU EITHER DIE AS A 100% Catholic or you die outside the church. There’s no middle ground IN ETERNITY. There is middle ground in this world, because people become confused and tempted. But in eternity, you are either the wheat who is gathered into God's barn or you’re the cockle who is burned.

Angelus · « **Reply #98 on:** December 10, 2025, 11:43:45 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 10, 2025, 11:37:09 AM

Wrong. The secretly repentant die as Catholics. They are 100% members. They are 100% Catholic.

A Catholic is a full member. Only Catholics go to heaven. Or purgatory.

There is no such thing as a partial Catholic or partial member IN ETERNITY. YOU EITHER DIE AS A 100% Catholic or you die outside the church. There’s no middle ground IN ETERNITY. There is middle ground in this world, because people become confused and tempted. But in eternity, you are either the wheat who is gathered into God's barn or you’re the cockle who is burned.

Do you want to find some theological or Magisterial backing for those claims? Or should we just take your word for it?

WorldsAway · « **Reply #99 on:** December 10, 2025, 11:58:37 AM »

Quote from: SkidRowCatholic on December 10, 2025, 11:11:50 AM

Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Pope Pius IX Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 1863

I think it's pretty weakly worded, but if you actually believe EENS you will not take it to mean that non-Catholics can be saved

Pius IX says that it is a "very grave error" to "believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching."

He then speaks about those "struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion"...i.e. those living in error, alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity! Those who cannot attain salvation as they are

He then says those observing the natural law, ready to obey God, and living honest lives are able to attain eternal life "by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace". Again, if you believe EENS you will take this to mean that God will provide those moral "invincibly ignorant" with the opportunity to hear the Gospel (divine light) embrace the faith and enter the Church (divine grace through baptism)

WorldsAway · « **Reply #100 on:** December 10, 2025, 12:13:18 PM »

Quote from: Angelus on December 10, 2025, 11:43:45 AM

Do you want to find some theological or Magisterial backing for those claims? Or should we just take your word for it?

Quote

For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.

PPXI, Mortalium Animos

Quote

For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith. That is why it is fitting that, belonging to the one same body, they also have the one same will; and just as the brethren are united by the bond of mutual charity, so it is not fitting that they arouse among themselves injustice and hurt, since the Saviour says, My commandment is that you love one another as I have loved you .

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Sess. 11

Quote

For, to be sure, the edifice of the whole church is one, whose foundation was placed by blessed Peter in this See. Many stones are joined for its construction, but all rest on one rock. One is the body of the church, whose head is Christ, and all cohere in it

Pope Clement XIV, cuм Summi

SkidRowCatholic · « **Reply #101 on:** December 10, 2025, 12:22:19 PM »

Quote from: WorldsAway on December 10, 2025, 11:58:37 AM

He then says those observing the natural law, ready to obey God, and living honest lives are able to attain eternal life "by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace". Again, if you believe EENS you will take this to mean that God will provide those moral "invincibly ignorant" with the opportunity to hear the Gospel (divine light) embrace the faith and enter the Church (divine grace through baptism)

Yes. This is how I understand it as well.

God will always provide the necessary graces for those whom He knows will be saved.

They must enter the Church (in some way) before death, but the answer to how is still in the speculative stages.

(remember I linked you this already: https://archive.org/details/necessityofchurc0000king)
In there you can see clearly that there has been "development of doctrine" on this point and this was ongoing right through Vatican II.

No one should be called "heretic" for holding the same opinions that were tolerated by the Church for centuries w/o being officially condemned.
Neither should one be called "heretic" for choosing NOT to hold those opinions (not saying you did either of those).

It is similar to what happened between the Molinists and Thomists concerning the debate on grace.

The Pope simply said (paraphrasing), "You cannot call each other heretics, both opinions may be tolerated". and he left it at that.

The problem we keep encountering is displayed by what this whole thread has devolved into - the secret and hidden judgments of God and we are, "not allowed to proceed further."

God is God. If He wants to do secret and hidden things concerning "secret and hidden members" and their salvation - that is really His business, not ours (before someone jumps all over me, I am only using those terms because we lack the definitive theological precision as ruled on by he highest authority concerning this topic - all the nuances, etc.)

We will not unravel all the answers to these questions because;

A) Even if we think we have found the definitive answer on all these things - we have no Pope to decide on it, so it still remains just an opinion.
B) Even if we did have a Pope he could just do what he did with the debate on grace and tell us all to "let it alone".

It will always be the true teaching to be saved one must, repent and believe in the Gospel, be baptized and hold/live the faith - and there is, "no salvation outside the Church."

One cannot be obligated to hold these speculative opinions under penalty of the censure of heresy.
Neither can one be obligated to shun them as if they were already condemned.

Anything past that is God's wheelhouse and we will just have to wait for eternity to learn a little more.

There is no contradiction in God, but man is full of and prone to contradiction.

Man rushes to judgement, chops and hacks at his fellows, shows little to no mercy, and thinks himself wise all the while.

Angelus · « **Reply #102 on:** December 10, 2025, 12:53:52 PM »

I really don't think your quotes address the question directly.

PV said: "The secretly repentant [heretics] die as Catholics. They are 100% members. They are 100% Catholic."

If we take "Catholic" to mean the state of his soul [the internal forum], then I agree with what he says. But, the Church, using the external forum as its guide, through its practices and its Canon Law, does not provide burial for those thought to be "notorious heretics" at the time of their death.

Canon 1240 (1983 CIC 1184)
§ 1. Unless they gave before death a sign of repentance, the following are deprived of
ecclesiastical burial:

1.° Notorious apostates from the Christian faith, or those who notoriously gave their
name to heretical sects or schismatic or masonic sects, or other societies of this sort;

So the Church treats the secretly repentant former heretic as someone "outside the Church." So then take EENS.

Do you use the Church's judgement in the external forum to decide the fate of the dead man? If so, it would seem that you would conclude that the man is in everlasting Hell.

Or do you use the possibility of his secret repentance to decide the fate of the dead man? If so, then you really can't say anything for sure about the eternal state of his soul, even though by all appearances he was outside of the Church. All we can do is follow what the Church law tells us to do and not make firm assumptions about his eternal destination, right?

If the second option is the correct one (and I think it is), we should be careful not to oversimplify the dogma of EENS because it could cause simple people to assume a person who died "outside of the Church" [External Forum] will never make it to Heaven. I think this is why the Canon Law says it is okay to pray privately for those souls, but not publicly.

And as you will remember this was the main point in the Charlie Kirk threads. Certain people were overstepping the boundaries set by the Church. If they had just privately prayed for him, that would have been okay. But instead, they were online advocating to everyone that he was a martyr and Catholic and maybe already in Heaven.

So, as usual, there are two extremes that need to be avoided.

Quote

Quote

For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.

PPXI, Mortalium Animos

Quote

For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith. That is why it is fitting that, belonging to the one same body, they also have the one same will; and just as the brethren are united by the bond of mutual charity, so it is not fitting that they arouse among themselves injustice and hurt, since the Saviour says, My commandment is that you love one another as I have loved you .

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Sess. 11

Quote

For, to be sure, the edifice of the whole church is one, whose foundation was placed by blessed Peter in this See. Many stones are joined for its construction, but all rest on one rock. One is the body of the church, whose head is Christ, and all cohere in it

Pope Clement XIV, cuм Summi

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #103 on:** December 10, 2025, 12:55:35 PM »

Quote from: Angelus on December 10, 2025, 11:43:45 AM

Do you want to find some theological or Magisterial backing for those claims? Or should we just take your word for it?

What does this even mean? If a heretic rejects his heresy, then he's a catholic again.

You're either pregnant or not. You're either a catholic or a heretic. You're either baptized or not. There's no middle ground.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #104 on:** December 10, 2025, 01:00:20 PM »

Quote from: Angelus on December 10, 2025, 12:53:52 PM

I really don't think your quotes address the question directly.

PV said: "The secretly repentant [heretics] die as Catholics. They are 100% members. They are 100% Catholic."

If we take "Catholic" to mean the state of his soul [the internal forum], then I agree with what he says. But, the Church, using the external forum as its guide, through its practices and its Canon Law, does not provide burial for those thought to be "notorious heretics" at the time of their death.

Canon 1240 (1983 CIC 1184)
§ 1. Unless they gave before death a sign of repentance, the following are deprived of
ecclesiastical burial:

1.° Notorious apostates from the Christian faith, or those who notoriously gave their
name to heretical sects or schismatic or masonic sects, or other societies of this sort;

So the Church treats the secretly repentant former heretic as someone "outside the Church." So then take EENS.

Do you use the Church's judgement in the external forum to decide the fate of the dead man? If so, it would seem that you would conclude that the man is in everlasting Hell.

Or do you use the possibility of his secret repentance to decide the fate of the dead man? If so, then you really can't say anything for sure about the eternal state of his soul, even though by all appearances he was outside of the Church. All we can do is follow what the Church law tells us to do and not make firm assumptions about his eternal destination, right?

If the second option is the correct one (and I think it is), we should be careful not to oversimplify the dogma of EENS because it could cause simple people to assume a person who died "outside of the Church" [External Forum] will never make it to Heaven. I think this is why the Canon Law says it is okay to pray privately for those souls, but not publicly.

And as you will remember this was the main point in the Charlie Kirk threads. Certain people were overstepping the boundaries set by the Church. If they had just privately prayed for him, that would have been okay. But instead, they were online advocating to everyone that he was a martyr and Catholic and maybe already in Heaven.

So, as usual, there are two extremes that need to be avoided.

Quote

Quote

Quote

You're confusing the Church's GENERAL doctrine of EENS (i.e. those outside the Church go to hell) with Her SPECIFIC attitude towards non-catholics (i.e. She has NEVER declared a SPECIFIC non-catholic PERSON to be in hell).

Pastor Anglican John -- dies while giving an anglican sermon.

Doctrine = He died a heretic, so per EENS, he is not saved.
Specific = Pastor John must be treated as a heretic but we don't know if he is in hell.

Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel (Read 12908 times)

Angelus

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel

Pax Vobis

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel

SkidRowCatholic

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel

Pax Vobis

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel

Angelus

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel

Angelus

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel

Angelus

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel

Pax Vobis

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel

Angelus

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel

WorldsAway

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel

WorldsAway

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel

SkidRowCatholic

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel

Angelus

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel

Pax Vobis

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel

Pax Vobis

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel