Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 121680 times)

0 Members and 20 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 48261
  • Reputation: +28502/-5328
  • Gender: Male
Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2025, 06:11:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I might actually have to copy and save out these last few posts just to illustrate how desperate and insane the anti-EENS people are.

    Offline WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1398
    • Reputation: +909/-129
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #46 on: December 09, 2025, 06:25:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What you say is absolutely true for "salvation," which means going straight to Heaven without a stop in any other abode after death. No one, who is not a baptized member of the Church has the chance "to benefit from the ecclesiastical sacraments and fasting, almsgiving and other offices of piety and exercises of the Christian soldiery that bring forth eternal rewards." These things prepare the white garment of the soul. And they are only available to Catholics.
    This is the first time I have seen this narrow definition of salvation...salvation is entering the Kingdom of Heaven, plain and simple. All Catholics who die in a state of grace will enter the state of salvation.

    Quote
    However, not all who are outside the Church will burn in Hell forever and never make it to Paradise. In fact, even most Catholics will suffer "the fires of Hell" in Purgatory for a long time before entering Paradise.

    Uhhh, I really hope I am misinterpreting what you are saying here. If not, it is easily refuted by Pope Boniface VIII in Unam Sanctam:

    Quote
    With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin
    As shown by Eugene IV's teaching, pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics are in no way united to the Church in any manner. Their sins cannot be remitted, ergo they cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Ever. 

    Quote
    The point is that there are other temporary places for those non-saved souls are "detained," and we shouldn't lose sight of that fact. Aquinas speaks of five places:

     Aquinas speaks of no place that those who die outside the Church are temporarily held...

    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1398
    • Reputation: +909/-129
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #47 on: December 09, 2025, 06:44:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Right ... BoD cannot stand up to the definition of Florence regarding how the Sacraments cannot benefit them to salvation, which is precisely the only non-openly-heretical version of BoD you can hold, namely, that the Sacrament of Baptism somehow effects salvation by operating through the desire for it.  If you denied that it did, then you are a heretic for denying the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.  But, the problem is that the prospective beneficiary of BoD is not in the unity of the ecclesiastical body, since all theologians admit that one does not join the body until the actual reception of the Sacrament of Baptism, i.e. that those receiving BoD are not in the Body of the Church, but somehow just attached to the soul, etc.  But if that's the case -- and it is -- then Florence dogmatically teaches that the Sacrament cannot in fact benefit them unto salvation.  Trent also teaches the same about the Sacrament of Confession, where perfect contrition on its own cannot restore a fallen soul to a state of justification, not without the intention to receive the Sacrament, since there can be no forgiveness of sin after a post-Baptismal fall without the Sacrament.  So, then, perfect contrition on its own can't restore non-Catholics to any kind of state of justification, since they cannot receive the Sacrament of Confession, nor are the unbaptized even subjec to the power of the keys, which is necessary for absolution from sin.

    Now, Msgr. Fenton at least recognized this problem, and he correctly rejected the idea that people can be saved simply be belonging to the "soul" of the Church, rejecting the notion that there can be a soul of the Church that's not co-extensive with the body, as if the animal soul of a human body can extend beyond the actual physical body itself.

    So what he does is claim that one can be IN the Body of the Church without being a PART OF the Body of the Church (i.e. a member of the Church) ... something which I've described as "Undigested Hamburger Ecclesiology".  So, what is in the body but not part of it.  Well, something like food that is IN the stomach but has not been digested and somehow converted into human tissue and made one with the body.

    But Florence destroys that as well, since it explicilty teaches that they must be in the UNITY of the Body.  Food that you put in your mouth is not PART OF your body, one with your body ... but is merely per accidens in your body.  Unity with the Body requires a substantial conformity with it, i.e. where you would have to share the body's DNA and be part of the organism, not just accidentally inside and/or somehow attached to your body.  I could also conduct some bizarre experiment where I would take the body part of an animal and sew it onto a human being (some sicko scientists have in fact done stuff like that), but that doesn't mean that it's essentially part of my body, just accidentally fused onto it.

    SVs have attacked SSPX and other R&R for their "Frankenchurch" theology, but this take "Frankenchurch" to the next level, where it's possible like Victor Frankenstein, to stitch together various disparate body parts into some monstrosity.  Is that the Body of the Church?  Ridiculous.
    I think it's truly providential that Pope Eugene IV used the terms that he did when referring to those outside the Church. He taught that pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics:

    are outside of the Church

    are not joined to the Church

    do not abide in the unity of the ecclesiastical body

    are not in the bosom and unity of the Church 

    It leaves absolutely zero leeway to somehow describe them as "united" to the Church..but of course that doesn't matter to those who do not believe the Dogma 
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1648
    • Reputation: +641/-127
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #48 on: December 09, 2025, 07:31:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yeah, so now you engage in a play of words where those outside the Church are not saved and go to Hell only in the sense that they god to the "fires of Hell" in Purgatory.  These heretics never cease to amaze me with their lies and mendacity.

    While, some theologians claim that the fires of Purgatory and the fires of Hell are the same fires (I dispute this), Purgatory and Hell are two completely different places, where those in Purgatgory are in a state of justification, are friends with God, and are in a state of grace, whereas those in Hell are not.

    But, then, again, you don't bother to read the Church's dogmatic definition at Florence.

    Let's try again:
    So, yeah, those outside the Church will burn in Hell forever, and not the temporary "Hell" that you've just redefined as Purgatory.  See that term there above, "everlasting", you know, the fire where the devils are ... or do you believe the devils are in Purgatory and will also eventually get out?  At that point, you're on track to sllide into a different heresy, that of Origen, and revived by Bergoglio here, where in the end, everyone will be converted and enter union with God, all the wicked, and even the devils.

    This is the kindof crap that causes steam to practically come out of my ears, it's so stupid, and such a pack of lies, distortions, and fallacies ... that it can only come from the diseased mind of someone who absolute refuses to accept the Church's dogmatic teaching, but then whose tortured conscience will attempt just about anything to claim they actually believe it by completely redefining the meaning of the words, the terms, the concepts ... so they can pay lip service to it, but then what they actually affirm in their intellects is the exact opposite of what the Church was actually teaching here.

    Yeah, when the Church says "salvation", it's referring only to those who bypassed Purgatory.  When the Church says "Hell", she really means Purgatory.  When the Church says "everlasting fire prepared for the devil", she really means "temporary fire prepared for the just".  When the Church says "is", she really means ...  When the Church says "is no", she really means "is".  If you don't believe that non-Catholics CAN be saved, then you're a heretic who rejects Church teaching, since we have to understand dogma as the Church understands it, or, rather, I say the Church underestand it, meaning that you're a heretic if you don't accept me as your rule of faith.

    You have to be almost certifiably insane to spew this nonsense out there.  No, salvation means what everyone understand by salvation.  No, the everlasting fires prepared for the devil and his angels really is Hell, and not Purgatory.  Yes, "is" does in fact mean "is", and "is no" does not mean "is".

    I said that that the state of Purgatory is not the state of salvation.

    Eventually all who go to Purgatory will be in the state of salvation, so those in Purgatory have the assurance of eventual salvation. But, while in Purgatory, they are not in a state of "welfare" or "health," which are the literal meanings of the word "salus" in Latin. They are in a state of suffering, and that is why we are called pray for them.

    And I never said that everyone would be converted. Very few will be converted, in fact. But the Church does teach that non-Catholics with perfect Contrition can be justified. And the state of justification has its own reward.

    I said: "However, not all who are outside the Church will burn in Hell forever and never make it to Paradise. In fact, even most Catholics will suffer 'the fires of Hell' in Purgatory for a long time before entering Paradise." 

    For example, you would consider many people who are validly-baptized to be "outside the Church," right? Some are Orthodox or Protestant, etc. If these people, confess directly to God with perfect contrition, what do you think the Church says happens to them? They will be justified by having true sorrow for their sins. If this happens, and they die immediately after, do they burn in Hell forever? Does the Church teach that?

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1648
    • Reputation: +641/-127
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #49 on: December 09, 2025, 07:37:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This is the first time I have seen this narrow definition of salvation...salvation is entering the Kingdom of Heaven, plain and simple. All Catholics who die in a state of grace will enter the state of salvation.

    Uhhh, I really hope I am misinterpreting what you are saying here. If not, it is easily refuted by Pope Boniface VIII in Unam Sanctam:
    As shown by Eugene IV's teaching, pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics are in no way united to the Church in any manner. Their sins cannot be remitted, ergo they cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Ever.

     Aquinas speaks of no place that those who die outside the Church are temporarily held...

    Yes, those outside the Church who remain in their state of sin by rejecting Christ and His Church at the time of their death "cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Ever." Agreed.

    But people in those categories can make an act of Perfect Contrition to God directly before their death can be justified by that act. They will not go to Heaven directly. They will need to expiate their sins. Where do they do that?


    Offline WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1398
    • Reputation: +909/-129
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #50 on: December 09, 2025, 08:33:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, those outside the Church who remain in their state of sin by rejecting Christ and His Church at the time of their death "cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Ever." Agreed.

    But people in those categories can make an act of Perfect Contrition to God directly before their death can be justified by that act. They will not go to Heaven directly. They will need to expiate their sins. Where do they do that?

    The problem you face is that you say this:
    Quote
    Yes, those outside the Church who remain in their state of sin by rejecting Christ and His Church at the time of their death "cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Ever." Agreed.
    But also say this:
    Quote
    But people in those categories [outside of the Church] can make an act of Perfect Contrition to God directly before their death can be justified by that act
    When the Dogma is this:
    Quote
    With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin


    The people in those categories cannot be justified because they are outside of the Church. None of their sins can be remitted
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1648
    • Reputation: +641/-127
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #51 on: December 09, 2025, 09:47:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The problem you face is that you say this:But also say this:When the Dogma is this:

    The people in those categories cannot be justified because they are outside of the Church. None of their sins can be remitted

    Some of the people who are "outside of the Church" can repent of all of their sins, even if they are not members of the Catholic Church at the time of their repentance. For example, heretics and schismatics. 

    To do so, they must at least repent directly to God in prayer with perfect contrition. This does not make them members of the Catholic Church in the normal sense, but it does cleanse their soul of the guilt for their sins. After they do this, they become friends of God.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48261
    • Reputation: +28502/-5328
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #52 on: December 09, 2025, 11:59:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Some of the people who are "outside of the Church" can repent of all of their sins, even if they are not members of the Catholic Church at the time of their repentance. For example, heretics and schismatics.

    To do so, they must at least repent directly to God in prayer with perfect contrition. This does not make them members of the Catholic Church in the normal sense, but it does cleanse their soul of the guilt for their sins. After they do this, they become friends of God.

    More Pelagian-heretical nonsense.

    I can't believe the depths of heretical depravity to which you stoop.

    Basically you claim that faith isn't even necesary for salvtion (heresy condemned explicitly by Trent), that so long as you repent of yous "sins" (evidently the sin of heresy and schism need not be repented of ... for if they did repent of those they would no longer be heretics and schismatics).

    I'm afraid that you have lost the Catholic faith and are completely bereft of it.  You need to pray for your own conversion, since if you die in this state, you too are lost, and not just consigned to the non-eternal Hellfires of Purgatory.

    IF AND ONLY IF certain heretics and schismatics are invincibly ignorant of the truth to the point that their heresy and schism are not culpable, and if they respent of all their other sins, they can be in a state of justification, but cannot be saved.

    It is not required to actively sin against the faith to not have the faith.  That's nothing short of Pelagianism, where, so long as you don't actively sin against God, you're saved, i.e. you're saved by default unless you commit actual sin.

    You need to stop posting and pray very hard that God will give you the Catholic faith, so that you can convert and save your soul.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48261
    • Reputation: +28502/-5328
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #53 on: December 10, 2025, 12:10:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • The problem you face is that you say this:But also say this:When the Dogma is this:

    The people in those categories cannot be justified because they are outside of the Church. None of their sins can be remitted

    No, the problem he faces is that he's a heretic who does not have the Catholic faith.  I think you need to stop dignifying that garbage he posts with anything other than an open denounciation of him as a heretic.

    His posts are such a headache inducing blend and amalgam of one illogical emotion-driven emetic nonsense after another, where there's nothing even close to resembling an application of logic to known Catholic teacihng and principles in order to draw conclusions therefrom ... that it's clear evidence of the fact that he simply hates EENS dogma, that he refuses to and will simply not accept the fact that heretics, schismatics, and infidels cannot be saved, and so he'll come up with one thing after another in a desperate hope that some of the crap he throws at the wall might stick long enought so that he can try to absolve himself of heresy, and declare himself to be in good faith.  He must be shaken out of that illusion by being told quite simply and bluntly that he's a heretic.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48261
    • Reputation: +28502/-5328
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #54 on: December 10, 2025, 12:42:05 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • I get more and more dicouraged by what an extreme cesspool of error the entire world and even the entire Tradosphere has become, where 99% of Trads deny the dogma that there's no salvation outisde the Church, half of Trads deny the indefectibilty of the Church in her universal Magisterium and universal discipline, especially the Mass, where people go from one horrible non-Catholic opinion to another, like "lesser evil" and "end justifies the means" having become legitimate Catholic moral principles.  I never thought I would live to see the day when the majority of those who self-identy as Trads (because they like chant, incense, and bells?) voted for a pro-abortion, pro-sodomite, pro-genocide, pro-Jєωιѕн, pro-unjust-war candidate for President, who's also a serial adulterer, a moral degenerate, and likely child rapist ... but many even claimed that Catholics have a positive obligation to vote for him.  Not only that, but most of them were celebrating, practically popping champagne corks, after Trump's victory ...  thereby celebrating and reveling in evil, rather than at least thinking, with heavy hearts, that it was the best choice available (not that it would justify the choice, but at the very least it would render it no cause for celebration).  Bishop Sanborn at least admitted that he is "Pro Abortion" and that one is not obliged to vote for him, but he was in the minority even on that, and he did not go far enough, by holding that one was permitted to vote for an evil candidate, i.e. that the end (keeping Biden out of office) justifies the means (voting for Trump).  I'm not sure how the Trads who voted Trump can sleep at night, having the blood of innocents all over their hands.

    We will be punished as a nation for voting into office such a wicked President, with such evil policies ... and the punishment will be coming very soon.

    Offline WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1398
    • Reputation: +909/-129
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #55 on: December 10, 2025, 04:17:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, the problem he faces is that he's a heretic who does not have the Catholic faith.  I think you need to stop dignifying that garbage he posts with anything other than an open denounciation of him as a heretic.

    His posts are such a headache inducing blend and amalgam of one illogical emotion-driven emetic nonsense after another, where there's nothing even close to resembling an application of logic to known Catholic teacihng and principles in order to draw conclusions therefrom ... that it's clear evidence of the fact that he simply hates EENS dogma, that he refuses to and will simply not accept the fact that heretics, schismatics, and infidels cannot be saved, and so he'll come up with one thing after another in a desperate hope that some of the crap he throws at the wall might stick long enought so that he can try to absolve himself of heresy, and declare himself to be in good faith.  He must be shaken out of that illusion by being told quite simply and bluntly that he's a heretic.
    Yeah..nothing seems to work unfortunately. I'm not sure if I've ever seen seen someone stop denying the dogma after being presented with what the Church teaches...I feel like I'm going insane :confused:
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Everlast22

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1239
    • Reputation: +995/-261
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #56 on: December 10, 2025, 07:25:07 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Some of the people who are "outside of the Church" can repent of all of their sins, even if they are not members of the Catholic Church at the time of their repentance. For example, heretics and schismatics.

    To do so, they must at least repent directly to God in prayer with perfect contrition. This does not make them members of the Catholic Church in the normal sense, but it does cleanse their soul of the guilt for their sins. After they do this, they become friends of God.
    You've got to be kidding me... :facepalm:

    Offline WorldsAway

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1398
    • Reputation: +909/-129
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #57 on: December 10, 2025, 07:48:49 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Some of the people who are "outside of the Church" can repent of all of their sins, even if they are not members of the Catholic Church at the time of their repentance. For example, heretics and schismatics.

    To do so, they must at least repent directly to God in prayer with perfect contrition. This does not make them members of the Catholic Church in the normal sense, but it does cleanse their soul of the guilt for their sins. After they do this, they become friends of God.
    Again, this denies the Dogma. The Church teaches that heretics and schismatics are outside the Church. The Church teaches that there is no remission of sins outside the Church. 

    If someone's sins are remitted, that means they are inside the Church. It means that they are not heretics or schismatics, because heretics and schismatics are not inside the Church

    A heretic or schismatic must cease to be a heretic or schismatic in order to receive remission of sins
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 15312
    • Reputation: +6263/-924
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #58 on: December 10, 2025, 08:18:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Again, this denies the Dogma. The Church teaches that heretics and schismatics are outside the Church. The Church teaches that there is no remission of sins outside the Church.

    If someone's sins are remitted, that means they are inside the Church. It means that they are not heretics or schismatics, because heretics and schismatics are not inside the Church

    A heretic or schismatic must cease to be a heretic or schismatic in order to receive remission of sins
    Yes, it denies the dogma as taught by Pope Boniface VIII in Unam Sanctam:

     "We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1648
    • Reputation: +641/-127
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #59 on: December 10, 2025, 08:53:39 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • More Pelagian-heretical nonsense.

    I can't believe the depths of heretical depravity to which you stoop.

    Basically you claim that faith isn't even necesary for salvtion (heresy condemned explicitly by Trent), that so long as you repent of yous "sins" (evidently the sin of heresy and schism need not be repented of ... for if they did repent of those they would no longer be heretics and schismatics).

    I'm afraid that you have lost the Catholic faith and are completely bereft of it.  You need to pray for your own conversion, since if you die in this state, you too are lost, and not just consigned to the non-eternal Hellfires of Purgatory.

    IF AND ONLY IF certain heretics and schismatics are invincibly ignorant of the truth to the point that their heresy and schism are not culpable, and if they respent of all their other sins, they can be in a state of justification, but cannot be saved.

    It is not required to actively sin against the faith to not have the faith.  That's nothing short of Pelagianism, where, so long as you don't actively sin against God, you're saved, i.e. you're saved by default unless you commit actual sin.

    You need to stop posting and pray very hard that God will give you the Catholic faith, so that you can convert and save your soul.

    I never said "faith isn't necessary for salvation." 

    I said, the people would need to "repent of ALL their sins." This includes sins ALL against the faith. After their repentance, with perfect contrition and confession made directly to God, they would no longer truly be "heretics" or "schismatics." But they would also not be formal members of the Catholic Church and may not have access to a Catholic priest to receive the Sacrament of Confession.

    You should stop rushing to judgement. It is a sin you know. Rather than accuse someone of heresy right out of the gate, the proper thing to do would be to ask for clarification.