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Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 133145 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #390 on: Yesterday at 06:24:47 PM »
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  • Now ... a strictly limited BoD such as what St. Robert held, would not create fatal damage to Catholic ecclesiology, where it's only possible for Catechumens and those who are practically such, with explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, and intending to become Catholic (even if their status had not been formalized).

    But the SECOND you extend BoD to anyone else, to infidels, for instance, or to heretics (and it's laughable, and exposes their motivation when some apply BoD to even baptized Protestants), but once you extend the possibility of salvation to non-Catholics ... YOU HAVEN'T GOT A LEG TO STAND ON IN OPPOSING VATICAN II.

    If you ask ANY of the Sedevacantists what heresies were taught by Vatican II, their first response is ALWAYS the ecclesiology.  But how blinded they are not to realize that they hold the same ecclesiology themselves, but they live in this absurd cognitive dissonance.

    It's not even the least bit complicated, and NOBODY has refuted this in the 10 years or so I've been posting it.  It's merely ignored, as they plod along dishonestly accusing Vatican II of teaching a heretical ecclesiology while out of the other side of their mouths promoting the same ecclesiology.

    MAJOR:  No salvation outside the Church. [DOGMA]
    MINOR:  Various non-Catholics, heretics, schismatics, and even infidels ... can be saved. [SVs -- who will condemn you as a heretical Feeneyite if you deny this MINOR]
    CONCLUSION:  Various non-Catholics, heretics, schismatics, and and infidels can be within the Church.

    So ... what does that do to your Ecclesiology --- oh Anti-Feeyeites -- eh?  Yeah, that's right ... you believe in a Catholic Church whose subsistent core is the Catholic Church, but which can include various non-Catholics, heretics, schismatics, and infidels.  You're condemned from your own mouth.

    THIS HAS NEVER BEEN REFUTED, and ONLY ONE REFUTATION HAS EVER BEEN ATTEMPTED ... and that was just right after one time when pointed out that no refutation had ever been attempted.  And it was extremely weak and didn't actually address the main point.

    In fact, when I posted this syllogism (you'll note that it has absolutely NOTHING to do with BoD, nada, zilch) ... yet every time I posted this on X in response to some sedevacantist who was attacking the "heretical" Vatican II ecclesiology, I was immediately blocked.

    Online Tarmac Turkey

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #391 on: Today at 12:46:52 AM »
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  • Right, I'm referring specifically to St. Alphonsus' writings on BOD, after Trent. St. Alphonsus is regularly cited by BODers as an authority on the issue, especially the fact that he held BOD to be de fide.
    Do you have any comment on St. Alphonsus' definition of BOD (what he said was de fide, and now BODers claim as well) and how it relates to what Trent dogmatically taught about the man "born again" (posted above)?

    Here is St. Alphonsus' definition again, please note the bolded:


    And here is Trent, please note the bolded:



    St Alphonsus:

    Trent:


    Online Tarmac Turkey

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #392 on: Today at 01:21:31 AM »
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  • Right, I'm referring specifically to St. Alphonsus' writings on BOD, after Trent. St. Alphonsus is regularly cited by BODers as an authority on the issue, especially the fact that he held BOD to be de fide.
    Do you have any comment on St. Alphonsus' definition of BOD (what he said was de fide, and now BODers claim as well) and how it relates to what Trent dogmatically taught about the man "born again" (posted above)?

    Here is St. Alphonsus' definition again, please note the bolded:


    And here is Trent, please note the bolded:



    St Alphonsus:

    Trent:
    St Alphonsus is perfectly in line with Trent. BoD is not a sacrament but just analogically so as it lacks matter and form. If St Alphonsus was in error in his teaching on BoD, he would have been condemned but instead was canonised by Gregory XVI and later proclaimed doctor of the Church by Pius IX.

    Online Tarmac Turkey

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #393 on: Today at 01:31:33 AM »
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  • From The Catholic Encyclopedia 

    Substitutes for the sacrament
    The Fathers and theologians frequently divide baptism into three kinds: the baptism of water (aquæ or fluminis), the baptism of desire (flaminis), and the baptism of blood (sanguinis). However, only the first is a real sacrament. The latter two are denominated baptism only analogically, inasmuch as they supply the principal effect of baptism, namely, the grace which remits sins. It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood.
    The baptism of desire
    The baptism of desire (baptismus flaminis) is a perfect contrition of heart, and every act of perfect charity or pure love of God which contains, at least implicitly, a desire (votum) of baptism. The Latin word flamen is used because Flamen is a name for the Holy Ghost, Whose special office it is to move the heart to love God and to conceive penitence for sin. The "baptism of the Holy Ghost" is a term employed in the third century by the anonymous author of the book "De Rebaptismate". The efficacy of this baptism of desire to supply the place of the baptism of water, as to its principal effect, is proved from the words of Christ. After He had declared the necessity of baptism (John 3), He promised justifying grace for acts of charity or perfect contrition (John 14): "He that loveth Me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." And again: "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him." Since these texts declare that justifying grace is bestowed on account of acts of perfect charity or contrition, it is evident that these acts supply the place of baptism as to its principal effect, the remission of sins. This doctrine is set forth clearly by the Council of Trent. In the fourteenth session (cap. iv) the council teaches that contrition is sometimes perfected by charity, and reconciles man to God, before the Sacrament of Penance is received. In the fourth chapter of the sixth session, in speaking of the necessity of baptism, it says that men can not obtain original justice "except by the washing of regeneration or its desire" (voto). The same doctrine is taught by Pope Innocent III (cap. Debitum, iv, De Bapt.), and the contrary propositions are condemned by Popes Pius V and Gregory XII, in proscribing the 31st and 33rd propositions of Baius.
    We have already alluded to the funeral oration pronounced by St. Ambrose over the Emperor Valentinian II, a catechumen. The doctrine of the baptism of desire is here clearly set forth. St. Ambrose asks: "Did he not obtain the grace which he desired? Did he not obtain what he asked for? Certainly he obtained it because he asked for it." St. Augustine (On Baptism, Against the Donatists, IV.22) and St. Bernard (Ep. lxxvii, ad H. de S. Victore) likewise discourse in the same sense concerning the baptism of desire. If it be said that this doctrine contradicts the universal law of baptism made by Christ (John 3), the answer is that the lawgiver has made an exception (John 14) in favor of those who have the baptism of desire. Neither would it be a consequence of this doctrine that a person justified by the baptism of desire would thereby be dispensed from seeking after the baptism of water when the latter became a possibility. For, as has already been explained the baptismus flaminis contains the votum of receiving the baptismus aquæ. It is true that some of the Fathers of the Church arraign severely those who content themselves with the desire of receiving the sacrament of regeneration, but they are speaking of catechumens who of their own accord delay the reception of baptism from unpraiseworthy motives. Finally, it is to be noted that only adults are capable of receiving the baptism of desire.

    The baptism of blood
    The baptism of blood (baptismus sanquinis) is the obtaining of the grace of justification by suffering martyrdom for the faith of Christ. The term "washing of blood" (lavacrum sanguinis) is used by Tertullian (On Baptism 16) to distinguish this species of regeneration from the "washing of water" (lavacrum aquæ). "We have a second washing", he says "which is one and the same [with the first], namely the washing of blood." St. Cyprian (Epistle 73) speaks of "the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood" (sanguinis baptismus). St. Augustine (City of God 13.7) says: "When any die for the confession of Christ without having received the washing of regeneration, it avails as much for the remission of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism."
    The Church grounds her belief in the efficacy of the baptism of blood on the fact that Christ makes a general statement of the saving power of martyrdom in the tenth chapter of St. Matthew: "Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven" (verse 32); and: "He that shall lose his life for me shall find it" (verse 39). It is pointed out that these texts are so broadly worded as to include even infants, especially the latter text. That the former text also applies to them, has been constantly maintained by the Fathers, who declare that if infants can not confess Christ with the mouth, they can by act. Tertullian (Against the Valentinians 2) speaks of the infants slaughtered by Herod as martyrs, and this has been the constant teaching of the Church.
    Another evidence of the mind of the Church as to the efficacy of the baptism of blood is found in the fact that she never prays for martyrs. Her opinion is well voiced by St. Augustine (Tractate 74 on the Gospel of John): "He does an injury to a martyr who prays for him." This shows that martyrdom is believed to remit all sin and all punishment due to sin. Later theologians commonly maintain that the baptism of blood justifies adult martyrs independently of an act of charity or perfect contrition, and, as it were, ex opere operato, though, of course, they must have attrition for past sins. The reason is that if perfect charity, or contrition, were required in martyrdom, the distinction between the baptism of blood and the baptism of desire would be a useless one. Moreover, as it must be conceded that infant martyrs are justified without an act of charity, of which they are incapable, there is no solid reason for denying the same privilege to adults. (Cf. Francisco Suárez, De Bapt., disp. xxxix.)

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #394 on: Today at 05:05:21 AM »
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  • From The Catholic Encyclopedia

    Substitutes for the sacrament
    Eph. 4:5
    One Lord, one faith, one baptism. Clearly St. Paul preaches of no substitute.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #395 on: Today at 06:01:46 AM »
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  • St Alphonsus is perfectly in line with Trent. BoD is not a sacrament but just analogically so as it lacks matter and form. If St Alphonsus was in error in his teaching on BoD, he would have been condemned but instead was canonised by Gregory XVI and later proclaimed doctor of the Church by Pius IX.
    So when you are presented with St. Alphonsus seemingly being in error regarding the effects of BOD while attempting to define it (one of the same BOD definitions BODers use to support their arguments)...all you have to say is.."St. Alphonsus was correct. If he was incorrect, he would have been condemned".

    Was St. Alphonsus infallible? Was every single thing he ever wrote canonized with him? Do you believe there is any chance at all that there can be an error in a Church Fathers or Doctors writings?
    Are you really so obstinate that you cannot even acknowledge the apparent contradiction as it's staring you in the face?

    St. Alphonsus:

    Quote
    Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment.


    TRENT:

    Quote
    For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven

    Quote
    But though He died for all, yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated; because as truly as men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own, so unless they were born again in Christ they would never be justified, since by that new birth through the merit of His passion the grace by which they become just is bestowed upon them.”


    If there is no contradiction here, explain it.

    Explain how "debt of punishment''" remaining conforms with "absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven"

    Explain how "debt of punishment"="absolutely nothing"
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #396 on: Today at 08:46:48 AM »
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  • It is true that catechisms are not infallible.  It is also true that catechisms approved by the Church contain the Imprimatur and Nihil obstat, the latter meaning that the Church declares the work to be free of doctrinal and moral error. 

    ALL of these approved catechisms teach BOD / BOB.
    1) These terms mean they are free of MAJOR error (i.e. heresy).
    2) BOD (as explained by St Thomas/St Bellarmine) is not major heresy.
    3) MODERN BOD (1900s onward) has gone off the rails into major heresy.
    4) Catechisms don't explain the difference.
    5) Catechisms aren't meant to be infallible but just a summary of the Faith, at a 4th grade level.
    6) Catechisms don't fully explain many other topics.
    7) Catechisms DON'T TEACH BOD...they merely reference it.  Nowhere are the mechanics of BOD explained in detail (because no one, not even St Thomas/St Bellarmine agree).

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #397 on: Today at 08:59:37 AM »
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  • Now ... a strictly limited BoD such as what St. Robert held, would not create fatal damage to Catholic ecclesiology, where it's only possible for Catechumens and those who are practically such, with explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, and intending to become Catholic (even if their status had not been formalized).
    Correct.  The BOD of St Thomas/St Robert, for CATECHUMENS, is not heresy.

    Quote
    But the SECOND you extend BoD to anyone else, to infidels, for instance, or to heretics (and it's laughable, and exposes their motivation when some apply BoD to even baptized Protestants), but once you extend the possibility of salvation to non-Catholics ... YOU HAVEN'T GOT A LEG TO STAND ON IN OPPOSING VATICAN II.
    BOD for non-catechumens (i.e. those who are still in, accepting, practicing non-catholic religions) is heresy.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #398 on: Today at 09:03:11 AM »
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  • If St Alphonsus was in error in his teaching on BoD, he would have been condemned but instead was canonised by Gregory XVI
    :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:  This is just HORRIBLE logic and a lack of understanding of how the Church works.  St Thomas' Summa has multiple errors in it; was he condemned?  No, because what he wrote wasn't heresy, but only a theological error.  Same with St Alphonsus.

    If the Church had the manpower to review, in detail, every book/writing of the saints (which they don't).  And if they found an error, then to not publish said book, then we'd have almost ZERO books from saints.  Because they ALL had minor errors.  BECAUSE NO SAINT IS INFALLIBLE.