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Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 238798 times)

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #370 on: February 01, 2026, 10:59:34 AM »
Not every Catholic book has the Imprimatur, which simply means "it may be printed."  

It was (and still is) VERY unusual for a Catholic book to not have an Imprimatur, and Catholics (regardless of which "camp" they are in, should probable avoid those books that don't.

I think every student in pre-VII parochial school, by about fourth grade, learned what an Imprimatur was and that it meant "Let it be printed".  The Church was giving its ecclesiastical permission for the book to be printed, and one can hardly imagine the pre-VII church casually allowing books contrary to the faith to be printed.

What is being left out in the above quote is that almost every book with an Imprimatur also has the Nihil obstat, which means that the book has been examined by an official censor and found to contain nothing oppose2d to faith and morals.  Catholic bibles and missals may have an Imprimatur and not the Nihil obstat, as having been translated from approved sources they wouldn't necessarily need to be examined for doctrinal or moral error.  Books with such designation are not infallible, but the Church has declared that they are not heretical.  All of the catechisms I listed in Reply #362 (ALL pre-VII, some from the 19th century) have BOTH an Imprimatur AND the Nihil obstat

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #371 on: February 01, 2026, 01:02:24 PM »
Excellent catch Stubborn.

St. Alphonsus Liguori (1691-1787) teaches: “But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind␅ [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”- Moral Theology Book 6.
See, here we have the great saint correctly saying on the one hand that baptism is necessary for all, and that it is the Eucharist, not baptism, that may be had by desire (Spiritual Communion) which Trent was referring to when they used the words "or the desire thereof."

Per the above, he contradicts himself because I would say that he misunderstood / misquoted Trent. Allow me.....
Per your quote, he said: "Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”- Moral Theology Book 6."

First off, Session 6 is about justification, not salvation. 2nd, Trent says justification cannot be effected without the laver or the desire thereof. Nowhere does it say the desire thereof saves. This is where BODers who use Trent, fail.

Quoted below is Session 6, Chapter IV
Quote
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation [justification], since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

So right there, Trent says without the sacrament, justification cannot be effected. This is indisputable. I mean it's right there - no sacrament = no justification. Period. Desire or no desire, no sacrament = no justification.

Even when we take the whole sentence, it does not say justification can be effected with the desire thereof, which is what the BODers insists it means, which is actually absurd. Trent never, anywhere, not anywhere teaches one will definitely be saved by a desire, nor even if they do "X."   


Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #372 on: February 01, 2026, 01:42:08 PM »
Good morning Tarmac, I brought this up to BODers about mid-December..none seemed to want to touch it with a 10 foot pole. Maybe you want to take a stab at it

St Alphonsus' says BOD is de fide, and he gives us a definition of it. Here it is, reposted, please note the bolded:


Now here is what Trent teaches:

Please note that Trent says that unless you are born again, you would never be justified

Now see how Trent describes the man "born again", especially the last sentence.

Compare this with St. Alphonsus' definition of BOD, which he believed to be de fide
WorldsAway I seem to have missed your post about this in December. Here is St Thomas Aquinas touching on the matter long before The Council of Trent. This is what he says among other things:
Objection 1: It seems that no man can be saved without Baptism. For our Lord said (Jn. 3:5): "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." But those alone are saved who enter God's kingdom. Therefore none can be saved without Baptism, by which a man is born again of water and the Holy Ghost.
Reply to Objection 1: As it is written (1 Kings 16:7), "man seeth those things that appear, but the Lord beholdeth the heart." Now a man who desires to be "born again of water and the Holy Ghost" by Baptism, is regenerated in heart though not in body. thus the Apostle says (Rom. 2:29) that "the circuмcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not of men but of God."

Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #373 on: February 01, 2026, 02:45:46 PM »
WorldsAway I seem to have missed your post about this in December. Here is St Thomas Aquinas touching on the matter long before The Council of Trent. This is what he says among other things:
Objection 1: It seems that no man can be saved without Baptism. For our Lord said (Jn. 3:5): "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." But those alone are saved who enter God's kingdom. Therefore none can be saved without Baptism, by which a man is born again of water and the Holy Ghost.
Reply to Objection 1: As it is written (1 Kings 16:7), "man seeth those things that appear, but the Lord beholdeth the heart." Now a man who desires to be "born again of water and the Holy Ghost" by Baptism, is regenerated in heart though not in body. thus the Apostle says (Rom. 2:29) that "the circuмcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not of men but of God."
Right, I'm referring specifically to St. Alphonsus' writings on BOD, after Trent. St. Alphonsus is regularly cited by BODers as an authority on the issue, especially the fact that he held BOD to be de fide.
Do you have any comment on St. Alphonsus' definition of BOD (what he said was de fide, and now BODers claim as well) and how it relates to what Trent dogmatically taught about the man "born again" (posted above)?

Here is St. Alphonsus' definition again, please note the bolded:

Quote
Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"


And here is Trent, please note the bolded:


Quote
Council of Trent Sess. 5
Decree Concerning Original Sin
Chapter 5. If any one denies, that, by the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only erased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. For, in those who are born again, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; in such a manner that absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven
Quote
Sess. 6, Chap. 3: “But though He died for all, yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated; because as truly as men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own, so unless they were born again in Christ they would never be justified, since by that new birth through the merit of His passion the grace by which they become just is bestowed upon them.”


St Alphonsus:

Quote
Baptism of desire is[...]accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes[...]not as to [...]the removal of all debt of punishment.

Trent:

Quote
For, in those who are born again[...]absolutely nothing may delay them from entry into heaven

Quote
unless they were born again in Christ they would never be justified



Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #374 on: February 01, 2026, 05:57:28 PM »
And yet St. Alphonsus in his own tract on the Matter of Baptism says that "blood is certainly invalid matter" of the sacrament, materia certe invalida est, sanguis.  So let me get this straight, I cannot baptize someone with blood, but if I am unbaptized, I am able to baptize myself in my own blood. He says that martyrdom is not a sacrament because it was not an "action instituted by Christ," quia martyrium non esse actio instituta a Christo.  Christ instituted the sacraments, and the sacraments are necessary for salvation, period, end of story.

And he also says that martyrdom does not strictly operate as the sacraments do, and that neither martyrdom nor baptismus flaminis "baptism of desire" confers the character.  He says that "flaminis" means impulse of the Holy Spirit, impulsum Spiritus Sancti. Once again, this is vague and can mean many things.

You raise an interesting point.  St. Cyprian was perhaps the first to articulate the theory of "Baptism of Blood", per St. Augustine's testimoney even.

Now, the Dimond Brothers point out the error he made in referring to BoB as a Sacrament.

I actually think that he may not have just slipped up there, since at one point I found him describing BoB as a sitution where the martyrs are baptized in their blood while the angels say the words.  He actually appears to have considered blood to be a valid substitute matter for the Sacrament in the case of martyrdom, with angels supplying the form.

If St. Alphonsus claims blood is not valid matter, then where does he get off saying that no matter at all is required?  With all due respect to the great saint and Doctor of the Church, he's really all over the map on this issue, and I believe it was, quite frankly, due to some human respect, where he gave too much credit to some of the neo-Pelagians who are floating around already during his time posing as theologians, clowns like the heterodox Jesuit De Lugo.  He's say things like how he personally believed that explicit faith is required, but then claim that the IMO-heretical opinion of De Lugo in favor of implicit BoD made it probable (a word in scholastic terms which means possible, not probable in the sense of likely).

He completely fabricates out of thin air this notion that can't be excused as anything short of heretical, that BoD can leave behind temporal punishment due to sin.  Proof for this?  Bueller?  Bueller?  There is none.  Comletely made up, as is all of BoD.

Our Lord very clearly taught that a REBIRTH is required for entry into the Kingdom of Heaven, and the Council of Trent dogmatically affirms the interpretation that there can be no initial justification without rebirth, since the two are synonymous.  THEN, Trent rightly defines rebirth as a COMPLETE RESET.  Anything short of a complete reset would be absurd to refer to as a rebirth.  Trent clearly states that rebirth means a total expunging of all guilt of sin and punishment due to sin, so that no obstacles remain to immediate entrance into Heaven.

On top of that, one of the Pope Innocent docuмents states that someone who died with this "BoD" rushed immediately and without delay to his heavenly home.

Complete fabrication that contradicts the dogmatic teaching of Trent.

On top of that, we keep reading over and over again in his devotional works how EVERY SINGLE PERSON who died in countries without exposure to the Catholic faith ... were lost.  So, what? ... pious hyperbole to scare people, while at the same time claiming that De Lugo's opinion was "probable"?  Which one is it?