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Author Topic: Possible strict-EENS chapel  (Read 20234 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
« Reply #225 on: December 12, 2025, 03:07:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 12, 2025, 01:55:45 PM
    Divine Law = church law, but you seem to be defining it as something else.  And then you distinguish between Divine Law and the sacraments, which are the same thing.  :confused::confused::confused:

    In this discussion I have been talking about the part of the Divine Law that makes up the moral code because we were talking about someone who is "outside the Church" anyway. But yes, the Sacraments are also included in the Divine Law, according to Aquinas.


    According to Aquinas, does the divine law include the sacraments?

    In his comprehensive framework laid out in the Summa Theologiae, the Sacraments are considered an essential part of the New Law (or Law of Grace), which is the final and most perfect form of Divine Law revealed by God.

    Here is how Aquinas structures the relationship:

    1. Divine Law vs. Natural Law

    Aquinas always distinguishes between laws derived from human reason (Natural Law, Human Law) and laws revealed directly by God (Divine Law):


    Natural Law: The human participation in the eternal law, known by the light of reason (e.g., "do good and avoid evil").

    • Divine Law: Law directly revealed by God to guide man to his supernatural end. This is divided into the Old Law and the New Law.


    2. The Divisions of Divine Law

    Divine Law is split into two historical phases:

    LawCharacteristicsRelationship to Sacraments
    Old Law (Law of the Old Testament)Preparatory and Imperfect. Contained moral precepts (Decalogue), ceremonial precepts, and judicial precepts.Contained Sacramentals (e.g., sacrifices, circuмcision) that signified grace but did not contain or cause it. They were foreshadowing Christ.
    New Law (Law of Grace, or Evangelical Law)Perfect and Substantial. Given by Christ, it primarily consists of the grace of the Holy Spirit infused into the heart.Includes the New Law Sacraments which are the instruments by which the interior grace of the Holy Spirit is outwardly communicated to man.


    3. The Sacraments as Instruments of the New Divine Law

    Aquinas places the Sacraments squarely within the New Law because they are the necessary means for the administration of the grace that is the very essence of that Law.


    1. The Grace of the Holy Spirit is the chief element of the New Law.
    • 2. The Sacraments are the sensible signs and causal instruments appointed by God to convey that grace.


    In his treatise on the Sacraments (Summa Theologiae, III, Q. 60 onwards), Aquinas confirms that they are instituted by Christ and pertain to the sacramentals of the New Law, making them an integral and necessary part of the external precepts and practices of Divine Law.

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    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #226 on: December 12, 2025, 03:18:12 PM »
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    • The fact of the matter is that if anyone believes Pius IX to have "developed" the Dogma in such a way that EENS now "excludes" the "invincibly ignorant", who are admittedly "outside of the Church", then they make the Church, and the Popes who solemnly defined EENS, into liars

    So when Pope Innocent III, at the Fourth Lateran Council, taught:

    Quote
    There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.

    He, and the Church, did not actually mean "nobody at all"

    And when Pope Eugene IV, at Florence, taught:
    Quote
    [The Church] firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives

    He, and the Church, did not actually mean "all those who are outside the Church" will go into the "everlasting fire"


    When Pope Pius IX, at the Vatican Council, taught:
    Quote
    This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved,

    He, and the Church, did not actually mean "none can be saved"

    And when Pius IV, at Trent, taught:
    Quote
    This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved
    He, and the Church, did not actually mean "no one"

    When Pope Leo X, at Fifth Lateran, taught:
    Quote
    For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith
    He, and the Church, did not actually mean "no one at all"

    And when Boniface VIII, in Unam Sanctam, taught:
    Quote
    With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

    He, and the Church, did not actually mean for "every human creature" it is "absolutely necessary for salvation" be "subject to the Roman Pontiff"

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #227 on: December 12, 2025, 03:33:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on December 12, 2025, 03:07:34 PM
    In this discussion I have been talking about the part of the Divine Law that makes up the moral code because we were talking about someone who is "outside the Church" anyway. But yes, the Sacraments are also included in the Divine Law, according to Aquinas.


    According to Aquinas, does the divine law include the sacraments?

    In his comprehensive framework laid out in the Summa Theologiae, the Sacraments are considered an essential part of the New Law (or Law of Grace), which is the final and most perfect form of Divine Law revealed by God.

    Here is how Aquinas structures the relationship:

    1. Divine Law vs. Natural Law

    Aquinas always distinguishes between laws derived from human reason (Natural Law, Human Law) and laws revealed directly by God (Divine Law):


    Natural Law: The human participation in the eternal law, known by the light of reason (e.g., "do good and avoid evil").

    • Divine Law: Law directly revealed by God to guide man to his supernatural end. This is divided into the Old Law and the New Law.


    2. The Divisions of Divine Law

    Divine Law is split into two historical phases:

    LawCharacteristicsRelationship to Sacraments
    Old Law (Law of the Old Testament)Preparatory and Imperfect. Contained moral precepts (Decalogue), ceremonial precepts, and judicial precepts.Contained Sacramentals (e.g., sacrifices, circuмcision) that signified grace but did not contain or cause it. They were foreshadowing Christ.
    New Law (Law of Grace, or Evangelical Law)Perfect and Substantial. Given by Christ, it primarily consists of the grace of the Holy Spirit infused into the heart.Includes the New Law Sacraments which are the instruments by which the interior grace of the Holy Spirit is outwardly communicated to man.


    3. The Sacraments as Instruments of the New Divine Law

    Aquinas places the Sacraments squarely within the New Law because they are the necessary means for the administration of the grace that is the very essence of that Law.


    1. The Grace of the Holy Spirit is the chief element of the New Law.
    • 2. The Sacraments are the sensible signs and causal instruments appointed by God to convey that grace.


    In his treatise on the Sacraments (Summa Theologiae, III, Q. 60 onwards), Aquinas confirms that they are instituted by Christ and pertain to the sacramentals of the New Law, making them an integral and necessary part of the external precepts and practices of Divine Law.
    Exactly.  The natural law is not Divine Law.  The Divine Law is concerned with religion.  If a person follows the natural law, they don't get "illuminated by divine grace" to follow the natural law....they're already doing that.  You are using circular logic.  No one needs to be "illuminated by divine grace" to follow the natural law, because...the natural law is written on all men's hearts (so says scripture).

    Thus, if a natural-law-follower is illuminated by "divine grace" then the ONLY conclusion is that they will be illuminated to find the True Faith, which is the Divine Law.
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #228 on: December 12, 2025, 03:46:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 12, 2025, 03:33:25 PM
    Exactly.  The natural law is not Divine Law.  The Divine Law is concerned with religion.  If a person follows the natural law, they don't get "illuminated by divine grace" to follow the natural law....they're already doing that.  You are using circular logic.  No one needs to be "illuminated by divine grace" to follow the natural law, because...the natural law is written on all men's hearts (so says scripture).

    Thus, if a natural-law-follower is illuminated by "divine grace" then the ONLY conclusion is that they will be illuminated to find the True Faith, which is the Divine Law.

    Your argument is with the Angelic Doctor (Aquinas), not me. And the Divine Law also includes the moral precepts of the Decalogue, as you would have seen if you had read the AI answer in my post before this one.

    I already explained all of this in this earlier post:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/possible-strict-eens-chapel/msg1010254/#msg1010254

    Here is the key part from Aquinas, where he explains the connection of the Natural law to the Divine Light:

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I-II.Q91.A2

    I answer that, As stated above (Q90, A1, ad 1), law, being a rule and measure, can be in a person in two ways: in one way, as in him that rules and measures; in another way, as in that which is ruled and measured, since a thing is ruled and measured, insofar as it partakes of the rule or measure. Wherefore, since all things subject to Divine providence are ruled and measured by the eternal law, as was stated above (A1); it is evident that all things partake somewhat of the eternal law, insofar as, namely, from its being imprinted on them, they derive their respective inclinations to their proper acts and ends. Now among all others, the rational creature is subject to Divine providence in the most excellent way, insofar as it partakes of a share of providence, by being provident both for itself and for others. Wherefore it has a share of the Eternal Reason, whereby it has a natural inclination to its proper act and end: and this participation of the eternal law in the rational creature is called the natural law. Hence the Psalmist after saying (Ps 4:6): Offer up the sacrifice of justice, as though someone asked what the works of justice are, adds: Many say, Who showeth us good things? in answer to which question he says: The light of Thy countenance, O Lord, is signed upon us: thus implying that the light of natural reason, whereby we discern what is good and what is evil, which is the function of the natural law, is nothing else than an imprint on us of the Divine light. It is therefore evident that the natural law is nothing else than the rational creature’s participation of the eternal law.


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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #229 on: December 12, 2025, 03:55:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on December 12, 2025, 03:18:12 PM
    The fact of the matter is that if anyone believes Pius IX to have "developed" the Dogma in such a way that EENS now "excludes" the "invincibly ignorant", who are admittedly "outside of the Church", then they make the Church, and the Popes who solemnly defined EENS, into liars

    So when Pope Innocent III, at the Fourth Lateran Council, taught:

    He, and the Church, did not actually mean "nobody at all"

    And when Pope Eugene IV, at Florence, taught:
    He, and the Church, did not actually mean "all those who are outside the Church" will go into the "everlasting fire"


    When Pope Pius IX, at the Vatican Council, taught:
    He, and the Church, did not actually mean "none can be saved"

    And when Pius IV, at Trent, taught:He, and the Church, did not actually mean "no one"

    When Pope Leo X, at Fifth Lateran, taught:He, and the Church, did not actually mean "no one at all"

    And when Boniface VIII, in Unam Sanctam, taught:
    He, and the Church, did not actually mean for "every human creature" it is "absolutely necessary for salvation" be "subject to the Roman Pontiff"

    No what it means is you have interpreted EENS too strictly. The Magisterium, through all of the Popes, has clarified in what situations EENS does and does not apply. The core teaching of EENS is not touched.

    And regardless of what you think, you have no authority to place your interpretation of a dogma above the interpretation of a true Pope. 

    The entire Church for over a hundred years after Pius IX "believed Pius IX to have 'developed' the Dogma in such a way that EENS now 'excludes' the 'invincibly ignorant.'" But that does not mean "they make the Church, and the Popes who solemnly defined EENS, into liars." 

    It simply means that you need to try to understand what the Magisterium is trying to teaching you about EENS. That is your job. Unless, of course you don't think Pius IX was not a true Pope because he lost if office for manifest heresy, which is completely false. And, if you said that, it would make you an Old Catholic heretic.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #230 on: December 12, 2025, 04:19:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on December 12, 2025, 03:46:49 PM
    Your argument is with the Angelic Doctor (Aquinas), not me. And the Divine Law also includes the moral precepts of the Decalogue, as you would have seen if you had read the AI answer in my post before this one.

    I already explained all of this in this earlier post:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/possible-strict-eens-chapel/msg1010254/#msg1010254

    Here is the key part from Aquinas, where he explains the connection of the Natural law to the Divine Light:

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I-II.Q91.A2

    I answer that, As stated above (Q90, A1, ad 1), law, being a rule and measure, can be in a person in two ways: in one way, as in him that rules and measures; in another way, as in that which is ruled and measured, since a thing is ruled and measured, insofar as it partakes of the rule or measure. Wherefore, since all things subject to Divine providence are ruled and measured by the eternal law, as was stated above (A1); it is evident that all things partake somewhat of the eternal law, insofar as, namely, from its being imprinted on them, they derive their respective inclinations to their proper acts and ends. Now among all others, the rational creature is subject to Divine providence in the most excellent way, insofar as it partakes of a share of providence, by being provident both for itself and for others. Wherefore it has a share of the Eternal Reason, whereby it has a natural inclination to its proper act and end: and this participation of the eternal law in the rational creature is called the natural law. Hence the Psalmist after saying (Ps 4:6): Offer up the sacrifice of justice, as though someone asked what the works of justice are, adds: Many say, Who showeth us good things? in answer to which question he says: The light of Thy countenance, O Lord, is signed upon us: thus implying that the light of natural reason, whereby we discern what is good and what is evil, which is the function of the natural law, is nothing else than an imprint on us of the Divine light. It is therefore evident that the natural law is nothing else than the rational creature’s participation of the eternal law.


    You keep switching around terms and confusing yourself.  

    1.  The natural law = moral code = decalogue = 10 commandments.
    2.  All men have the natural law written on their hearts.  All humans intuitively know right/wrong (i.e. 10 commandments).
    3.  This knowledge is "divine light" but it's given to all men, at birth.

    So when Pope Pius says that "divine light" will be given to those that FOLLOW the natural law, this "divine light" is EXTRA.  It is ADDITIONAL to that which with men are created.  It is MORE than what is given at birth.

    You're saying that men are given "divine light" at birth, i.e. natural law.  And then, if they follow the natural law, they will be given MORE "divine light" about...the natural law.

    No, you're wrong.  You have circular reasoning.

    If men follow the natural law, they will be given "divine light" about religion/Faith, so as to convert.  They already have EVERYTHING THEY NEED about natural law, at birth.
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #231 on: December 12, 2025, 04:23:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 12, 2025, 04:19:51 PM
    You keep switching around terms and confusing yourself. 

    1.  The natural law = moral code = decalogue = 10 commandments.
    2.  All men have the natural law written on their hearts.  All humans intuitively know right/wrong (i.e. 10 commandments).
    3.  This knowledge is "divine light" but it's given to all men, at birth.

    So when Pope Pius says that "divine light" will be given to those that FOLLOW the natural law, this "divine light" is EXTRA.  It is ADDITIONAL to that which with men are created.  It is MORE than what is given at birth.

    You're saying that men are given "divine light" at birth, i.e. natural law.  And then, if they follow the natural law, they will be given MORE "divine light" about...the natural law.

    No, you're wrong.  You have circular reasoning.

    If men follow the natural law, they will be given "divine light" about religion/Faith, so as to convert.  They already have EVERYTHING THEY NEED about natural law, at birth.

    As usual, you are the one who is confused. The Decalogue (Ten Commandments) are NOT IDENTICAL TO the Natural Law. 

    Yes, the Natural Law is written on hearts. The Decalogue was written on STONE TABLETS.

    I am not wrong. You don't understand the different categories of moral precepts.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #232 on: December 12, 2025, 04:27:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on December 12, 2025, 04:23:40 PM
    As usual, you are the one who is confused. The Decalogue (Ten Commandments) are NOT IDENTICAL TO the Natural Law.

    Yes, the Natural Law is written on hearts. The Decalogue was written on STONE TABLETS.

    I am not wrong. You don't understand the different categories of moral precepts.
    :facepalm:  Wrong.  The 10 commandments were RE-given by God to Moses, to re-enforce the law that is already on men's hearts.  They are the same.
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    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #233 on: December 12, 2025, 04:46:14 PM »
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    • Heretics will attempt to gaslight you into believing that "every human creature", "no one at all", "all", and "none" do not actually mean what they mean.

    Heretics will also attempt to gaslight you into believing that for 1800 years every Pope and Council, when solemnly defining the Dogma, simply failed to mention such an important "exception", leading the faithful to erroneously believe it to mean..well, exactly what it says


    To anyone of good will:

    Popes and Councils, when solemnly defining EENS, have never, not once, made any exception. The very words used exclude any exceptions.

    Pope Pius IX himself, who some heretics claim "developed" the Dogma to exclude the "invincibly ignorant", inexplicably failed to include this "development" at the Vatican Council, when he said:


    Quote
    "This true catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved"

    It should also be noted that the above was said after the alleged "development" of the Dogma is said to have occured. With such an important "development" having occured, it seems strange that it would not be, for the first time, taught to the universal Church

    And we read the same Pope Pius IX, teaching at the Vatican Council:


    Quote
    [T]hat meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding.






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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #234 on: December 12, 2025, 04:47:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 12, 2025, 04:27:30 PM
    :facepalm:  Wrong.  The 10 commandments were RE-given by God to Moses, to re-enforce the law that is already on men's hearts.  They are the same.

    Question: Are the moral precepts of the Decalogue identical to the moral precepts of the Natural Law?
    Answer: No, they are not entirely identical.

    The moral precepts of the Decalogue are not identical to that of the Natural Law, because the Decalogue includes two distinct types of precepts:

    Precept TypeDecalogue PreceptsIdentity with Natural Law
    Moral Precepts Related to MenCommandments 4 through 10 (e.g., against murder, theft, adultery, false witness).Identical. The obligation is known directly by reason (Natural Law).
    Moral Precepts Related to GodCommandments 1, 2, and 3(Worship and Sabbath/Lord's Day).Not Identical. The general obligation is known by reason, but the specific manner and time (Sabbath/Sunday) are positive determinations added by Divine Law.


    The Third Commandment (Sabbath/Lord's Day)

    The obligation to keep the Sabbath holy is the primary reason the two sets of precepts are not fully identical:


    Natural Law Obligation (Moral Essence): Reason tells us that we must offer external worship to God and dedicate time for that worship.

    • Decalogue's Addition (Positive Determination): The Decalogue determines that this time must be the seventh day (the Sabbath). This specific timing is a positive command from God (Divine Law), not a conclusion that reason can arrive at on its own.

    Therefore, the Decalogue contains an element (the specific scheduling of worship) that adds a positive, determined requirement to the general, necessary moral requirement found in the Natural Law. This makes the two sets of precepts not absolutely identical.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #235 on: December 12, 2025, 04:53:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on December 12, 2025, 04:47:01 PM
    Question: Are the moral precepts of the Decalogue identical to the moral precepts of the Natural Law?
    Answer: No, they are not entirely identical.

    The moral precepts of the Decalogue are not identical to that of the Natural Law, because the Decalogue includes two distinct types of precepts:

    Precept TypeDecalogue PreceptsIdentity with Natural Law
    Moral Precepts Related to MenCommandments 4 through 10 (e.g., against murder, theft, adultery, false witness).Identical. The obligation is known directly by reason (Natural Law).
    Moral Precepts Related to GodCommandments 1, 2, and 3(Worship and Sabbath/Lord's Day).Not Identical. The general obligation is known by reason, but the specific manner and time (Sabbath/Sunday) are positive determinations added by Divine Law.


    The Third Commandment (Sabbath/Lord's Day)

    The obligation to keep the Sabbath holy is the primary reason the two sets of precepts are not fully identical:


    Natural Law Obligation (Moral Essence): Reason tells us that we must offer external worship to God and dedicate time for that worship.

    • Decalogue's Addition (Positive Determination): The Decalogue determines that this time must be the seventh day (the Sabbath). This specific timing is a positive command from God (Divine Law), not a conclusion that reason can arrive at on its own.

    Therefore, the Decalogue contains an element (the specific scheduling of worship) that adds a positive, determined requirement to the general, necessary moral requirement found in the Natural Law. This makes the two sets of precepts not absolutely identical.
    Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

    So...if a person follows the natural law (commandments 4-10) then "divine light" will illuminate them on the rest of the commandments (i.e. 1-3), right?

    And what do commandments 1-3 revolve around?  Religion. 

    And if God enlightens a person that they have to worship Him alone, and no strange gods, then what?

    And if God enlightens a person that they have to keep holy the "lord's day" then what?

    Then this natural-law-follower has the OBLIGATION to seek out a) what is the lord's day?  b) how do I worship God properly?

    These are all matters of DIVINE LAW, which means they concern the CHURCH and FAITH.  Which means, the person is no longer invincibly ignorant.  Because God enlightened them on requirements...

    And if they KEEP SEARCHING and PRAYING, they will find the Catholic Faith.
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #236 on: December 12, 2025, 04:53:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on December 12, 2025, 04:46:14 PM
    Heretics will attempt to gaslight you into believing that "every human creature", "no one at all", "all", and "none" do not actually mean what they mean.

    Heretics will also attempt to gaslight you into believing that for 1800 years every Pope and Council, when solemnly defining the Dogma, simply failed to mention such an important "exception", leading the faithful to erroneously believe it to mean..well, exactly what it says


    To anyone of good will:

    Popes and Councils, when solemnly defining EENS, have never, not once, made any exception. The very words used exclude any exceptions.

    Pope Pius IX himself, who some heretics claim "developed" the Dogma to exclude the "invincibly ignorant", inexplicably failed to include this "development" at the Vatican Council, when he said:


    It should also be noted that the above was said after the alleged "development" of the Dogma is said to have occured. With such an important "development" having occured, it seems strange that it would not be, for the first time, taught to the universal Church

    And we read the same Pope Pius IX, teaching at the Vatican Council:

    The Dogma, in its short form (without caveats), is a warning for those in earshot who are INSIDE not to leave the Church and for those who are OUTSIDE to join it.

    The Dogma still serves this original purpose. Nothing has changed in that respect.
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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #237 on: December 12, 2025, 05:00:27 PM »
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    • Heretics will also attempt to gaslight you into believing that literally every single time the Dogma has been solemnly defined, it was defined in "short form" only. Where the "long form" has been solemnly defined to be believed by the Universal Church, we may never know
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #238 on: December 12, 2025, 05:06:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on December 12, 2025, 04:53:21 PM
    Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

    So...if a person follows the natural law (commandments 4-10) then "divine light" will illuminate them on the rest of the commandments (i.e. 1-3), right?

    And what do commandments 1-3 revolve around?  Religion. 

    And if God enlightens a person that they have to worship Him alone, and no strange gods, then what?

    And if God enlightens a person that they have to keep holy the "lord's day" then what?

    Then this natural-law-follower has the OBLIGATION to seek out a) what is the lord's day?  b) how do I worship God properly?

    These are all matters of DIVINE LAW, which means they concern the CHURCH and FAITH.  Which means, the person is no longer invincibly ignorant.  Because God enlightened them on requirements...

    And if they KEEP SEARCHING and PRAYING, they will find the Catholic Faith.

    You mental model is all wrong.  You think the exception makes excuses for people who could do something about their "ignorance" and overcome it. That is not what Invincibility means.

    Let me ask you, what if you were a child living in some remote area of Tibet in the Himalayas. Your parents were Buddhists. No Catholic priest or missionary had ever been to your village. No one had ever heard of the Catholic Church. Then you, the child, dies as the age of ten years old (above the age of reason). Prior to your death, you never violated any of the moral precepts of the Natural Law, and you sought to do the divine will as best you were taught by the Buddhists around you. 

    Where do you think you would end up after death? Do you think you would burn in Hell for eternity even though you committed no faults?

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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Possible strict-EENS chapel
    « Reply #239 on: December 12, 2025, 05:09:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on December 12, 2025, 05:00:27 PM
    Heretics will also attempt to gaslight you into believing that literally every single time the Dogma has been solemnly defined, it was defined in "short form" only. Where the "long form" has been solemnly defined to be believed by the Universal Church, we may never know

    Here are all three LONG FORM quotes from Pius IX again:


    Singulari Quadam

    "Faith orders Us to hold that out of the Apostolic Roman Church no person can be saved, that it is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever will not enter therein shall perish in the waters of the deluge. On the other hand it is necessary to hold for certain that ignorance of the true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, is not a fault in the eyes of God. But who will presume to arrogate to himself the right to mark the limits of such an ignorance, holding in account the various conditions of peoples, of countries, of minds, and of the infinite multiplicity of human things? When delivered from the bonds of the body, we shall see God as He is, we will comprehend perfectly by what admirable and indissoluble bond the divine mercy and the divine justice are united; but as long as we are upon the earth, bent under the weight of this mortal mass which overloads the soul, let us hold firmly that which the Catholic doctrine teaches us, that there is only one God, one Faith, one Baptism; to seek to penetrate further is not permitted."


    Singulari Quidem

    "The Church clearly declares that the only hope of salvation for mankind is placed in the Christian faith, which teaches the truth, scatters the darkness of ignorance by the splendor of its light, and works through love. This hope of salvation is placed in the Catholic Church which, in preserving the true worship, is the solid home of this faith and the temple of God. Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control."


    Quanto Conficiamur Moerore

    "Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom “the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.”
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