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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => The Feeneyism Ghetto => Topic started by: MarylandTrad on March 16, 2017, 05:45:55 PM

Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: MarylandTrad on March 16, 2017, 05:45:55 PM
http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is small reference of their teachings on the matter:

Ordinary Magisterium

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: MarylandTrad on March 16, 2017, 05:47:28 PM
http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

Extraordinary Magisterium

Then, as though to set this constant teaching of the Fathers, Doctors and Popes “in concrete,” so to speak, we have the following definitions from the Solemn Magisterium of the Church:

Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved…”

Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Quote
Vatican I: “We teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable. So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.”

Vatican I: ''The doctrine of the faith which God has revealed has not been proposed to human intelligences to be perfected by them as if it were a philosophical system, but as a divine deposit entrusted to the Spouse of Christ to be faithfully guarded and infallibly interpreted. Hence also that sense of the sacred dogmas is to be perpetually retained which our Holy Mother the Church has once declared, nor is this sense ever to be abandoned on plea or pretext of a more profound comprehension of the truth.
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: saintbosco13 on March 16, 2017, 11:32:46 PM
Quote from: MarylandTrad
http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is small reference of their teachings on the matter:

Ordinary Magisterium

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)



As if anyone would disagree with these quotes! There are just as many quotes from popes and Doctors of the Church that approve of baptism of desire and blood (see baptismofdesire.com). All the quotes must be taken collectively.

What you are doing here is the equivalent of the Protestant argument that "faith alone" is required for salvation while ignoring all of the quotes that say "good works" are also required.



Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Gregory I on March 16, 2017, 11:39:20 PM
Quote from: saintbosco13
Quote from: MarylandTrad
http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is small reference of their teachings on the matter:

Ordinary Magisterium

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)



As if anyone would disagree with these quotes! There are just as many quotes from popes and Doctors of the Church that approve of baptism of desire and blood (see baptismofdesire.com). All the quotes must be taken collectively.

What you are doing here is the equivalent of the Protestant argument that "faith alone" is required for salvation while ignoring all of the quotes that say "good works" are also required.





I would like to see as many detailing that those who die ignorant of the faith are saved.
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: saintbosco13 on March 17, 2017, 12:28:31 AM
Quote from: An even Seven
Quote from: saintbosco13
Quote from: MarylandTrad
http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is small reference of their teachings on the matter:

Ordinary Magisterium

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)



As if anyone would disagree with these quotes! There are just as many quotes from popes and Doctors of the Church that approve of baptism of desire and blood (see baptismofdesire.com). All the quotes must be taken collectively.

What you are doing here is the equivalent of the Protestant argument that "faith alone" is required for salvation while ignoring all of the quotes that say "good works" are also required.



WHAT?????!!!!!!!!
First, He listed all POPES, and we know that infallibility can only come from a Pope.
Second, there are not any legitimate quotes from Popes, and definitely no Dogmatic ones, confirming BOD/BOB.
Third, it is entirely impossible for these quotes to be "taken collectively" if we do not want contradiction. This is why the Church has always taught that the Church's teaching always trumps a theologian or doctor if they are not aligned. They are not guarded with infallibility.


Brother, you are embarrassing yourself severely here. This post of yours is a perfect example of the non-Catholic, heretical stuff you keep posting. You don't understand your faith and you need to LEARN it before you post here.

For example, saying, "we know that infallibility can only come from a pope". LOOK VERY CLOSELY at these definitions of infallibility which consists of 3 components; Popes, General Councils, and the ordinary magisterium (notice what the ordinary magisterium consists of):

Definition of “Infallibility” from “A Catholic Dictionary”, 1951: "This infallibility resides (A) in the pope personally and alone; (B) in an ecuмenical Council subject to papal confirmation (these infallibilities are distinct but correlative); (C) in the bishops of the Church, dispersed throughout the world, teaching definitively in union with the pope. This is not a different infallibility from (B) but is the ordinary exercise of a prerogative (hence called the "ordinary magisterium") which is manifested in a striking manner in an ecuмenical Council. This ordinary magisterium is exercised by pastoral letters, preaching, catechisms, the censorship of publications dealing with faith and morals, the reprobation of doctrines and books: it is thus in continuous function and embraces the whole deposit of faith."

First Vatican Council: "All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."

Commentary on Canon Law (1918) on the ordinary magisterium: "What the Holy Fathers and the theologians hold unanimously as a matter of faith and morals, is also de fide."

If something is "de fide" that means it MUST be believed, which means it cannot contain error, which means it's INFALLIBLE. Now go back and look at the statement you made in saying, "we know infallibility can only come from a pope" and compare it to the definitions just given, which state infallibility ALSO comes from the unanimous teaching of the Holy Fathers and theologians. Your statement is heretical plain and simple, and because this is what you believe, you run into constant contradictions. This is your entire problem - you don't know the foundation of how things work so you are coming to incorrect conclusions ALL OVER the place.



Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: saintbosco13 on March 17, 2017, 12:34:27 AM
Quote from: Gregory I
Quote from: saintbosco13
Quote from: MarylandTrad
http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is small reference of their teachings on the matter:

Ordinary Magisterium

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)



As if anyone would disagree with these quotes! There are just as many quotes from popes and Doctors of the Church that approve of baptism of desire and blood (see baptismofdesire.com). All the quotes must be taken collectively.

What you are doing here is the equivalent of the Protestant argument that "faith alone" is required for salvation while ignoring all of the quotes that say "good works" are also required.



I would like to see as many detailing that those who die ignorant of the faith are saved.


The truth on the matter has nothing to do with how many quotes can be collected. Many quotes are collected primarily because the Feeneyites are thickheaded, but in reality,  if even only one true Pope gives us a quote on something, we must believe it. Catholics don't go around counting how many popes said something before they believe it.




Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Gregory I on March 17, 2017, 01:30:38 AM
Quote from: saintbosco13
Quote from: Gregory I
Quote from: saintbosco13
Quote from: MarylandTrad
http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is small reference of their teachings on the matter:

Ordinary Magisterium

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)



As if anyone would disagree with these quotes! There are just as many quotes from popes and Doctors of the Church that approve of baptism of desire and blood (see baptismofdesire.com). All the quotes must be taken collectively.

What you are doing here is the equivalent of the Protestant argument that "faith alone" is required for salvation while ignoring all of the quotes that say "good works" are also required.



I would like to see as many detailing that those who die ignorant of the faith are saved.


The truth on the matter has nothing to do with how many quotes can be collected. Many quotes are collected primarily because the Feeneyites are thickheaded, but in reality,  if even only one true Pope gives us a quote on something, we must believe it. Catholics don't go around counting how many popes said something before they believe it.






So which true Pope has said, Not that those who die in Invincible Ignorance CAN be saved (Which is related to potential, not means), but those who die in invincible ignorance but full of good works ARE saved (Which is related actuality, not potentiality)? Where's that golden nugget hiding?
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Stubborn on March 17, 2017, 05:32:54 AM
Quote from: saintbosco13
As if anyone would disagree with these quotes!


Whoa! Watch out bosco! You are admitting these teachings are the same ideas as the ideas proposed by the periodical From the Housetops that were promoted as the authentic teaching of the Catholic Church, but per SH, are far from being so and are very dangerous not only for those in the Church but also for those who live outside her.





Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: BumphreyHogart on March 17, 2017, 06:59:15 AM
Sb13, they don't understand infallibility, and that the ordinary magisterium is infallible. They don't know how to take things collectively and reconcile it ALL. They pick and choose from the magisterium as did the Protestants do from Scripture.
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Gregory I on March 17, 2017, 08:22:28 AM
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
Sb13, they don't understand infallibility, and that the ordinary magisterium is infallible. They don't know how to take things collectively and reconcile it ALL. They pick and choose from the magisterium as did the Protestants do from Scripture.


Nonsense, its you want to posit anonymous Christianity. People die never having heard the name of Christ, with no faith and with no charity and you want to grant them the possibility of Heaven.
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: BumphreyHogart on March 17, 2017, 09:23:59 AM
Quote from: Gregory I
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
Sb13, they don't understand infallibility, and that the ordinary magisterium is infallible. They don't know how to take things collectively and reconcile it ALL. They pick and choose from the magisterium as did the Protestants do from Scripture.


Nonsense, its you want to posit anonymous Christianity. People die never having heard the name of Christ, with no faith and with no charity and you want to grant them the possibility of Heaven.


I have explicitly said here on this sub-forum that NOBODY gets to heaven without supernatural faith and supernatural charity -the divine virtues. You don't understand the subject.
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Gregory I on March 17, 2017, 10:27:19 AM
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
Quote from: Gregory I
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
Sb13, they don't understand infallibility, and that the ordinary magisterium is infallible. They don't know how to take things collectively and reconcile it ALL. They pick and choose from the magisterium as did the Protestants do from Scripture.


Nonsense, its you want to posit anonymous Christianity. People die never having heard the name of Christ, with no faith and with no charity and you want to grant them the possibility of Heaven.


I have explicitly said here on this sub-forum that NOBODY gets to heaven without supernatural faith and supernatural charity -the divine virtues. You don't understand the subject.


Really, then you belief all the invincibly ignorant who are of good will will come to hold the faith without ignorance of Christ and the Trinity?
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: saintbosco13 on March 17, 2017, 01:00:16 PM
Even Seven,

You're absolutely killing me with your heresies. KILLING me.

Quote from: An even Seven

 Wow, you think that the belief that all infallibility comes from the Pope is heretical.

AND

The speculation of theologians are not divinely revealed truths.




You are directly denying A Commentary on Canon Law (1918) on the ordinary magisterium: "What the Holy Fathers and the theologians hold unanimously as a matter of faith and morals, is also de fide."

A Catholic Dictionary says exactly the same thing under the definition of Magisterium: "The ordinary magisterium is continually exercised by the Church especially in her universal practices connected with faith and morals, in the unanimous consent of the Fathers and theologians, in the decisions of the Roman Congregations concerning faith and morals, in the common sense of the Faithful, and various historical docuмents, in which the faith is declared. All these are founts of a teaching which as a whole is infallible...”

Both of the above are trusted sources with imprimatur.

The Catholic Encyclopedia, under the docuмent on Dogma, confirms this:

"...some theologians confine the word defined to doctrines solemnly defined by the pope or by a general council, while a revealed truth becomes a dogma even when proposed by the Church through her ordinary magisterium or teaching office”

WAKE UP!!!!


Quote from: An even Seven

 The definition from the Dictionary is different than the one given in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Here's a quote from the C.E.


The typical Feeneyite response that we've been seeing over and over in these discussions; that the Church is contradicting itself. Look again at the definition you provided from the CE and it is the SAME from A Catholic Dictionary.

I also noticed you quote the CE when it suits you, and condemn it when it doesn't.  So hypocritical. Do you trust this resource or not?


Quote from: An even Seven

 I hope that you notice that Catechisms are not part of the organs of infallibility. Even when it describes the Bishops as the Ordinary Magisterium, it must be in union with the Pope and is only concerned with the promulgation and maintenance of what has been DEFINED by the Solemn Magisterium. Therefore, the teachings which come from the Ordinary can never evolve or be explained in a manner that either contradicts the original Dogma or renders its original purpose meaningless. This is why the people who believe the Dogma EENS exactly as it’s defined, do not start delving into how it can be circuмvented. Being saved in the soul of the Church, being within but not a member of, not having explicit faith etc…, these all change the DOGMA of EENS into a meaning that is contradictory to the simple words of the Definition.



UNBELIEVABLE. You sound like a third grader trying to lecture people on how the magisterium works. Catechisms THEMSELVES are not infallible, but they are VEHICLES used by the ordinary magisterium to teach infallible doctrines. For instance, the Summa Theologica and the Baltimore catechism, while not infallible in and of themselves, they BOTH teach individual infallible doctrines continuously taught throughout the history of the Church. They are therefore VEHICLES of the magisterium. When a doctrine is taught continuously throughout the Church without being condemned (i.e. baptism of desire), it is part of the ordinary magisterium and must be believed. THAT is why the CE quote I gave above states, "while a revealed truth becomes a dogma even when proposed by the Church through her ordinary magisterium or teaching office”


Quote from: An even Seven

 It depends on who says it is de fide. There are instances where Churchmen considered certain things de fide but ended up being challenged and overturned. If a Pope or Council solemnly declares something to be De Fide, then it would be so. This does not apply to individuals other than the Pope.


Holy smokes. You are creating phony doctrine out of thin air here. No one has to "say" something is de fide, it simply IS when the Church Fathers and Theologians teach it continuously, as the quotes I just provided above state. You really need to buy some traditional Catholic books and LEARN before you post any further.








Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: saintbosco13 on March 17, 2017, 01:04:55 PM
Quote from: Gregory I
Quote from: saintbosco13
Quote from: Gregory I
Quote from: saintbosco13
Quote from: MarylandTrad
http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is small reference of their teachings on the matter:

Ordinary Magisterium

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)



As if anyone would disagree with these quotes! There are just as many quotes from popes and Doctors of the Church that approve of baptism of desire and blood (see baptismofdesire.com). All the quotes must be taken collectively.

What you are doing here is the equivalent of the Protestant argument that "faith alone" is required for salvation while ignoring all of the quotes that say "good works" are also required.



I would like to see as many detailing that those who die ignorant of the faith are saved.


The truth on the matter has nothing to do with how many quotes can be collected. Many quotes are collected primarily because the Feeneyites are thickheaded, but in reality,  if even only one true Pope gives us a quote on something, we must believe it. Catholics don't go around counting how many popes said something before they believe it.






So which true Pope has said, Not that those who die in Invincible Ignorance CAN be saved (Which is related to potential, not means), but those who die in invincible ignorance but full of good works ARE saved (Which is related actuality, not potentiality)? Where's that golden nugget hiding?



Quotes I'm being saved in invincible ignorance/perfect contrition, either from or approved by Pope Pius IX, Pope Leo XIII, Pope St. Pius X, and Pope Pius XII, have already been posted in these discussions multiple times. How many times they need to be posted?





Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Ladislaus on March 17, 2017, 01:05:50 PM
Quote from: saintbosco13
... the Church Fathers and Theologians teach it continuously, as the quotes I just provided above state.


Uhm, no, no they don't.  Not even close.
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Ladislaus on March 17, 2017, 01:11:42 PM
Quote from: saintbosco13
Quotes I'm being saved in invincible ignorance/perfect contrition, either from or approved by Pope Pius IX, Pope Leo XIII, Pope St. Pius X, and Pope Pius XII, have already been posted in these discussions multiple times. How many times they need to be posted?


As we've pointed out to you many times, moran, the invincibility or not of ignorance has nothing to do with whether someone can be saved ... but only with their degree of culpability in the matter.  If the person is ignorant of those truths necessary for salvation (and all theologians hold that there are some), then it matters not whether that person is invincibly ignorant or not.  What matters is the question of what truths must be known in order to be saved (i.e. Rewarder God vs. Trinity/Incarnation).

You can "POST" these quotes all you want.  Problem is that you distort their meaning (to the point of imputing heresy to these popes).

Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Gregory I on March 17, 2017, 02:31:14 PM
Let me break it down for you: it is perfectly possible to believe something hypothetically true yet posit a theory that apparently contradicts the hypothesis.

For example, there is an ongoing dispute in the Church regarding the nature of predestination and election, and there are like 5 schools of thought all of which affirm different things and contradict one another in different ways. But they all seek to keep within the bounds of defined dogma.

A particular instance is the Augustinian school of the understanding of Grace and predestination. Now, we know it is a heresy to teach that grace considered generally is irresistible. But it is NOT a heresy to posit intrinsically efficacious grace is infallibly efficacious. What's the difference? One says mans will is compromised by God, the other that God can infallibly woo man and appeal to his freedom in such a way that man always responds. So there can be an apparent contradiction that when properly explained is no contradiction, but is easily confused because phenomenological lay the results are practically indistinguishable, in this case between the Calvinist irresistible grace and the Augustinian Victorious delight of grace.

Similarly there can be apparent contradictions between the saints fathers popes and councils, yet the understanding can be harmonized and synthesized in such a way that the contradiction is only apparent, skin deep. And since dogma has priority, all theological opinions must be reconciled in the direction of dogma.

So you can have one saint say all the elect are predestined to be water baptized, as St. Augustine says. You can have a council define that outside the Church there is neither sanctity nor remission of sins, and you can have a pope teach in an encyclical that the invincibly ignorant can be saved.

What then is a consistent and non-contradictory understanding? That firstly there is no remission of sins outside the Church, nor is there the infusion of charity, which is salvation. Therefore, we can say with Augustine that all the elect are predestined to be actually baptized, and grant Pope Pius IX his theological opinion, that those who are good willed but ignorant can be enlightened, but their enlightenment will come through the mediation of the Church in accordance with those means which are necessary by a necessity of means: Explicit faith in Christ and the Trinity, and water baptism.

None of this denies the invincibly ignorant can be saved nor does it deny that those who sincerely resolve to receive water baptism can be justified by that resolve. It simply completes the posited scenarios in such a way that satisfies many of the teachings of the other fathers and theologians and the simple facts of history regarding extraordinary miracles that have taken place specifically SO the ignorant could be baptized.

Any contradiction or denial you see is apparent and comes from the fact that you are merely systematizing a bias rather than trying to SYNTHESIZE the fathers, councils, saints and facts.
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Cantarella on March 17, 2017, 10:55:19 PM
Quote from: Gregory I
What then is a consistent and non-contradictory understanding? That firstly there is no remission of sins outside the Church, nor is there the infusion of charity, which is salvation. Therefore, we can say with Augustine that all the elect are predestined to be actually baptized, and grant Pope Pius IX his theological opinion, that those who are good willed but ignorant can be enlightened, but their enlightenment will come through the mediation of the Church in accordance with those means which are necessary by a necessity of means: Explicit faith in Christ and the Trinity, and water baptism.


That is precisely the undertanding Feeneyites at Saint Benedict Center have of Pius IX' Quanto Conficiamur Moerore. There is no contradiction.
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: BumphreyHogart on March 18, 2017, 10:36:22 AM
Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: saintbosco13
Quotes I'm being saved in invincible ignorance/perfect contrition, either from or approved by Pope Pius IX, Pope Leo XIII, Pope St. Pius X, and Pope Pius XII, have already been posted in these discussions multiple times. How many times they need to be posted?


As we've pointed out to you many times, moran, the invincibility or not of ignorance has nothing to do with whether someone can be saved ... but only with their degree of culpability in the matter.  If the person is ignorant of those truths necessary for salvation (and all theologians hold that there are some), then it matters not whether that person is invincibly ignorant or not.  What matters is the question of what truths must be known in order to be saved (i.e. Rewarder God vs. Trinity/Incarnation).

You can "POST" these quotes all you want.  Problem is that you distort their meaning (to the point of imputing heresy to these popes).



All you Feeneyites keep doing is taking potshots and running away. You can't seem to follow and hold a discursive discussion right through.

You bailed on the discussion when I asked you to provide proof for your assertion that the minority opinion was looked at as being danger to the faith. You dropped the discussion.

I answer once about the believing Church being infallible, and you dropped the discussion. All just piecemeal potshots.

Quote from: Ladislaus
What matters is the question of what truths must be known in order to be saved (i.e. Rewarder God vs. Trinity/Incarnation).


Is that supposed to be a start of a discussion again, or just to the beginning of a potshot?

I'm game. The question you bring up is not in order to be saved, but really in order to be baptized with the Sacrament.
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: saintbosco13 on March 18, 2017, 11:35:42 AM

Quote from: An even Seven

Apparently I haven't been clear enough.
I fully believe that the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is infallible. I DENY what you THINK IS the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. The Church hasn't defined EXACTLY what the OUM is, therefore all we have to go off of is that it is infallible.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Dictionary, Theologians, Catechisms, etc... are not part of the OUM because they sometimes contain errors. Any of these things can and do teach Dogma, and that's great for the education of the Faithful. While that is true, they are not fully and completely protected from error. Which is why we have various examples of errors being taught by those sources.
I also believe that unanimous consent of the Church Fathers constitutes Dogma. The problem is you do not have unanimous consent from the fathers regarding BOD.


You have truly crossed a line of no return with this post. Saying we don't know exactly what the OUM is? Absolute garbage. Saying that the CE, theologians, and catechisms are not part of the OUM????? They all contain error???? Enough is enough already - you're not even Catholic.

It is very easy to get educated on these subjects; there are very many free Catholic e-books with imprimatur available, and many more can be purchased for just a few dollars. Since you don't trust ANYTHING from the Church, you don't bother to get educated on anything, and because of this you remain completely lost.

No doubt you are here just to cause confusion, just like Stubborn. I'm officially hiding you after I send this - enough is enough.




Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Gregory I on March 18, 2017, 03:55:57 PM
Quote from: saintbosco13

Quote from: An even Seven

Apparently I haven't been clear enough.
I fully believe that the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is infallible. I DENY what you THINK IS the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. The Church hasn't defined EXACTLY what the OUM is, therefore all we have to go off of is that it is infallible.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Dictionary, Theologians, Catechisms, etc... are not part of the OUM because they sometimes contain errors. Any of these things can and do teach Dogma, and that's great for the education of the Faithful. While that is true, they are not fully and completely protected from error. Which is why we have various examples of errors being taught by those sources.
I also believe that unanimous consent of the Church Fathers constitutes Dogma. The problem is you do not have unanimous consent from the fathers regarding BOD.


You have truly crossed a line of no return with this post. Saying we don't know exactly what the OUM is? Absolute garbage. Saying that the CE, theologians, and catechisms are not part of the OUM????? They all contain error???? Enough is enough already - you're not even Catholic.

It is very easy to get educated on these subjects; there are very many free Catholic e-books with imprimatur available, and many more can be purchased for just a few dollars. Since you don't trust ANYTHING from the Church, you don't bother to get educated on anything, and because of this you remain completely lost.

No doubt you are here just to cause confusion, just like Stubborn. I'm officially hiding you after I send this - enough is enough.






Actually the OUM is when all the bishops in all the world with the Pope teach that a doctrine is to be considered revealed by God. It is absolutely NOT the common holding of an opinion. If it was you would have to admit the OUM at the end of the first and the beginning of the second millennium taught positive infant damnation in hellfire. After all, it was the common teaching for 800 years after Augustine and the bishops were all consistent in teaching it. So why do you reject it now? Because St. Thomas did? Pshaw! Who is one man to stand against the unanimous opinion of all the saints up to his time!

Nevertheless, today prevails the opinion of St. Thomas, 800 years later. So clearly a consensus in opinion is not authoritative in an absolute sense, nor is it binding. Only that which is taught as a truth revealed by God is part of the OUM. Now please demonstrate where the OUM teaches BoD is a truth revealed by God as opposed to a common or universal opinion?
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: BumphreyHogart on March 18, 2017, 05:16:16 PM
Quote from: Gregory I
Quote from: saintbosco13

Quote from: An even Seven

Apparently I haven't been clear enough.
I fully believe that the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is infallible. I DENY what you THINK IS the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. The Church hasn't defined EXACTLY what the OUM is, therefore all we have to go off of is that it is infallible.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Dictionary, Theologians, Catechisms, etc... are not part of the OUM because they sometimes contain errors. Any of these things can and do teach Dogma, and that's great for the education of the Faithful. While that is true, they are not fully and completely protected from error. Which is why we have various examples of errors being taught by those sources.
I also believe that unanimous consent of the Church Fathers constitutes Dogma. The problem is you do not have unanimous consent from the fathers regarding BOD.


You have truly crossed a line of no return with this post. Saying we don't know exactly what the OUM is? Absolute garbage. Saying that the CE, theologians, and catechisms are not part of the OUM????? They all contain error???? Enough is enough already - you're not even Catholic.

It is very easy to get educated on these subjects; there are very many free Catholic e-books with imprimatur available, and many more can be purchased for just a few dollars. Since you don't trust ANYTHING from the Church, you don't bother to get educated on anything, and because of this you remain completely lost.

No doubt you are here just to cause confusion, just like Stubborn. I'm officially hiding you after I send this - enough is enough.






Actually the OUM is when all the bishops in all the world with the Pope teach that a doctrine is to be considered revealed by God. It is absolutely NOT the common holding of an opinion. If it was you would have to admit the OUM at the end of the first and the beginning of the second millennium taught positive infant damnation in hellfire. After all, it was the common teaching for 800 years after Augustine and the bishops were all consistent in teaching it. So why do you reject it now? Because St. Thomas did? Pshaw! Who is one man to stand against the unanimous opinion of all the saints up to his time!

Nevertheless, today prevails the opinion of St. Thomas, 800 years later. So clearly a consensus in opinion is not authoritative in an absolute sense, nor is it binding. Only that which is taught as a truth revealed by God is part of the OUM. Now please demonstrate where the OUM teaches BoD is a truth revealed by God as opposed to a common or universal opinion?


When it involves approved Catholic Catechisms, and generally approved books for the clergy & laity, it is part of the ordinary magisterium. The Church CANNOT fail to notice within a generation that something is dangerous to their faith. You Feeneyites talk about how things in such public reference works go against past SOLEMN DOGMA, and effectively claim nobody raised an eyebrow in all for Christendom for centuries!  Let's face it, you have a corrupt view of the holiness and divinity of the Church. It's heretical.
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Gregory I on March 18, 2017, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
Quote from: Gregory I
Quote from: saintbosco13

Quote from: An even Seven

Apparently I haven't been clear enough.
I fully believe that the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is infallible. I DENY what you THINK IS the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. The Church hasn't defined EXACTLY what the OUM is, therefore all we have to go off of is that it is infallible.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Dictionary, Theologians, Catechisms, etc... are not part of the OUM because they sometimes contain errors. Any of these things can and do teach Dogma, and that's great for the education of the Faithful. While that is true, they are not fully and completely protected from error. Which is why we have various examples of errors being taught by those sources.
I also believe that unanimous consent of the Church Fathers constitutes Dogma. The problem is you do not have unanimous consent from the fathers regarding BOD.


You have truly crossed a line of no return with this post. Saying we don't know exactly what the OUM is? Absolute garbage. Saying that the CE, theologians, and catechisms are not part of the OUM????? They all contain error???? Enough is enough already - you're not even Catholic.

It is very easy to get educated on these subjects; there are very many free Catholic e-books with imprimatur available, and many more can be purchased for just a few dollars. Since you don't trust ANYTHING from the Church, you don't bother to get educated on anything, and because of this you remain completely lost.

No doubt you are here just to cause confusion, just like Stubborn. I'm officially hiding you after I send this - enough is enough.






Actually the OUM is when all the bishops in all the world with the Pope teach that a doctrine is to be considered revealed by God. It is absolutely NOT the common holding of an opinion. If it was you would have to admit the OUM at the end of the first and the beginning of the second millennium taught positive infant damnation in hellfire. After all, it was the common teaching for 800 years after Augustine and the bishops were all consistent in teaching it. So why do you reject it now? Because St. Thomas did? Pshaw! Who is one man to stand against the unanimous opinion of all the saints up to his time!

Nevertheless, today prevails the opinion of St. Thomas, 800 years later. So clearly a consensus in opinion is not authoritative in an absolute sense, nor is it binding. Only that which is taught as a truth revealed by God is part of the OUM. Now please demonstrate where the OUM teaches BoD is a truth revealed by God as opposed to a common or universal opinion?


When it involves approved Catholic Catechisms, and generally approved books for the clergy & laity, it is part of the ordinary magisterium. The Church CANNOT fail to notice within a generation that something is dangerous to their faith. You Feeneyites talk about how things in such public reference works go against past SOLEMN DOGMA, and effectively claim nobody raised an eyebrow in all for Christendom for centuries!  Let's face it, you have a corrupt view of the holiness and divinity of the Church. It's heretical.


Nonsense, I don't say the Church teaches heresy, I say that individuals espouse error. The fact is that individuals can do that and promote their error too. Why do you think BoD had never been taught as a truth revealed by God yet? It's simply a common opinion, like infants damned in hellfire. Lots of people and even saints can teach it, but it doesn't mean it's not erroneous.
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: BumphreyHogart on March 18, 2017, 06:19:23 PM
Quote from: Gregory I
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
Quote from: Gregory I
Quote from: saintbosco13

Quote from: An even Seven

Apparently I haven't been clear enough.
I fully believe that the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is infallible. I DENY what you THINK IS the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. The Church hasn't defined EXACTLY what the OUM is, therefore all we have to go off of is that it is infallible.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Dictionary, Theologians, Catechisms, etc... are not part of the OUM because they sometimes contain errors. Any of these things can and do teach Dogma, and that's great for the education of the Faithful. While that is true, they are not fully and completely protected from error. Which is why we have various examples of errors being taught by those sources.
I also believe that unanimous consent of the Church Fathers constitutes Dogma. The problem is you do not have unanimous consent from the fathers regarding BOD.


You have truly crossed a line of no return with this post. Saying we don't know exactly what the OUM is? Absolute garbage. Saying that the CE, theologians, and catechisms are not part of the OUM????? They all contain error???? Enough is enough already - you're not even Catholic.

It is very easy to get educated on these subjects; there are very many free Catholic e-books with imprimatur available, and many more can be purchased for just a few dollars. Since you don't trust ANYTHING from the Church, you don't bother to get educated on anything, and because of this you remain completely lost.

No doubt you are here just to cause confusion, just like Stubborn. I'm officially hiding you after I send this - enough is enough.



Actually the OUM is when all the bishops in all the world with the Pope teach that a doctrine is to be considered revealed by God. It is absolutely NOT the common holding of an opinion. If it was you would have to admit the OUM at the end of the first and the beginning of the second millennium taught positive infant damnation in hellfire. After all, it was the common teaching for 800 years after Augustine and the bishops were all consistent in teaching it. So why do you reject it now? Because St. Thomas did? Pshaw! Who is one man to stand against the unanimous opinion of all the saints up to his time!

Nevertheless, today prevails the opinion of St. Thomas, 800 years later. So clearly a consensus in opinion is not authoritative in an absolute sense, nor is it binding. Only that which is taught as a truth revealed by God is part of the OUM. Now please demonstrate where the OUM teaches BoD is a truth revealed by God as opposed to a common or universal opinion?


When it involves approved Catholic Catechisms, and generally approved books for the clergy & laity, it is part of the ordinary magisterium. The Church CANNOT fail to notice within a generation that something is dangerous to their faith. You Feeneyites talk about how things in such public reference works go against past SOLEMN DOGMA, and effectively claim nobody raised an eyebrow in all for Christendom for centuries!  Let's face it, you have a corrupt view of the holiness and divinity of the Church. It's heretical.


Nonsense, I don't say the Church teaches heresy, I say that individuals espouse error. The fact is that individuals can do that and promote their error too. Why do you think BoD had never been taught as a truth revealed by God yet? It's simply a common opinion, like infants damned in hellfire. Lots of people and even saints can teach it, but it doesn't mean it's not erroneous.


Wrong. The Church is "holy". It's a mark of the Church. Holiness excluded sin even by silence. The Church cannot do that. We are talking now about teaching in catechism sent to the clergy and laity, and for generations of the faithful being born, living, and dying with the teaching, and nobody noticing that they are against previously defined solemn dogma?????

I would rather think you insane than a downright heretic to affirm that happened.
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Gregory I on March 18, 2017, 07:23:20 PM
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
Quote from: Gregory I
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
Quote from: Gregory I
Quote from: saintbosco13

Quote from: An even Seven

Apparently I haven't been clear enough.
I fully believe that the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is infallible. I DENY what you THINK IS the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. The Church hasn't defined EXACTLY what the OUM is, therefore all we have to go off of is that it is infallible.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Dictionary, Theologians, Catechisms, etc... are not part of the OUM because they sometimes contain errors. Any of these things can and do teach Dogma, and that's great for the education of the Faithful. While that is true, they are not fully and completely protected from error. Which is why we have various examples of errors being taught by those sources.
I also believe that unanimous consent of the Church Fathers constitutes Dogma. The problem is you do not have unanimous consent from the fathers regarding BOD.


You have truly crossed a line of no return with this post. Saying we don't know exactly what the OUM is? Absolute garbage. Saying that the CE, theologians, and catechisms are not part of the OUM????? They all contain error???? Enough is enough already - you're not even Catholic.

It is very easy to get educated on these subjects; there are very many free Catholic e-books with imprimatur available, and many more can be purchased for just a few dollars. Since you don't trust ANYTHING from the Church, you don't bother to get educated on anything, and because of this you remain completely lost.

No doubt you are here just to cause confusion, just like Stubborn. I'm officially hiding you after I send this - enough is enough.



Actually the OUM is when all the bishops in all the world with the Pope teach that a doctrine is to be considered revealed by God. It is absolutely NOT the common holding of an opinion. If it was you would have to admit the OUM at the end of the first and the beginning of the second millennium taught positive infant damnation in hellfire. After all, it was the common teaching for 800 years after Augustine and the bishops were all consistent in teaching it. So why do you reject it now? Because St. Thomas did? Pshaw! Who is one man to stand against the unanimous opinion of all the saints up to his time!

Nevertheless, today prevails the opinion of St. Thomas, 800 years later. So clearly a consensus in opinion is not authoritative in an absolute sense, nor is it binding. Only that which is taught as a truth revealed by God is part of the OUM. Now please demonstrate where the OUM teaches BoD is a truth revealed by God as opposed to a common or universal opinion?


When it involves approved Catholic Catechisms, and generally approved books for the clergy & laity, it is part of the ordinary magisterium. The Church CANNOT fail to notice within a generation that something is dangerous to their faith. You Feeneyites talk about how things in such public reference works go against past SOLEMN DOGMA, and effectively claim nobody raised an eyebrow in all for Christendom for centuries!  Let's face it, you have a corrupt view of the holiness and divinity of the Church. It's heretical.


Nonsense, I don't say the Church teaches heresy, I say that individuals espouse error. The fact is that individuals can do that and promote their error too. Why do you think BoD had never been taught as a truth revealed by God yet? It's simply a common opinion, like infants damned in hellfire. Lots of people and even saints can teach it, but it doesn't mean it's not erroneous.


Wrong. The Church is "holy". It's a mark of the Church. Holiness excluded sin even by silence. The Church cannot do that. We are talking now about teaching in catechism sent to the clergy and laity, and for generations of the faithful being born, living, and dying with the teaching, and nobody noticing that they are against previously defined solemn dogma?????

I would rather think you insane than a downright heretic to affirm that happened.


You are not listening. INDIVIDUALS can teach error, not the Church. If you read the introduction to the Roman Catechism it says it is not inerrant. Same with immaculate conception and papal infallibility etc. The Church can tolerate error being taught by individuals for a time for It is not her own teaching.
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: tdrev123 on March 18, 2017, 07:39:22 PM
Many Saints taught the Assumption of St. Joseph and others, even though in official catechisms it has said only Jesus and Mary's body were assumed into heaven.  Catechisms are fallible.  Show me where Vatican 1 says catechisms are infallible.  
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: tdrev123 on March 18, 2017, 07:47:03 PM
The Catechism of council of trent and others taught that souls were not infused to the embryo at the moment of conception.  The official teaching for the last few centuries says they are at the moment of conception.

Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: tdrev123 on March 18, 2017, 07:49:03 PM
Not even the Code of canon law is infallible.  It is addressed to the Latin Church, not the universal church, which is a requirement for infallibility.

You would be laughed out of any seminary, novas ordo, indult, sspx, MHT, sspv etc. for saying catechisms are all infallible.

You don't even know basic theology.  
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Ladislaus on March 18, 2017, 07:53:16 PM
Quote from: tdrev123
Not even the Code of canon law is infallible.  It is addressed to the Latin Church, not the universal church, which is a requirement for infallibility.


That's not true.  Something addressed to the Latin Church is considered universal in scope (vs. something addressed to a particular church or region).
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Ladislaus on March 18, 2017, 07:55:03 PM
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
All you Feeneyites keep doing is taking potshots and running away. You can't seem to follow and hold a discursive discussion right through.


Nobody's running away.  We refute your positions and then you claim that no one has addressed your point.  Honestly, you and bosco bore me; you have the combined intellect of a turnip.

That's Cushingite Tactic #4.
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Ladislaus on March 18, 2017, 07:59:03 PM
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
When it involves approved Catholic Catechisms, and generally approved books for the clergy & laity, it is part of the ordinary magisterium.


Yes, those can be parts of the ordinary magisterium.  But the ordinary magisterium is infallible when it's universal.  Baltimore Catechism does not constitute universality by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote from: Bumphrey
The Church CANNOT fail to notice within a generation that something is dangerous to their faith.


False.  This is your stupid dogmatic sedevacantist "negative infallibility" crap again.  There's no divine guarantee that the Church will condemn every error that's floating out there.
Title: Popes on EENS
Post by: Ladislaus on March 18, 2017, 08:03:13 PM
Quote from: Gregory I
Actually the OUM is when all the bishops in all the world with the Pope teach that a doctrine is to be considered revealed by God. It is absolutely NOT the common holding of an opinion.


THIS ^^^

That's the Vatican I definition, but these idiot dogmatic sedevacantists effectively extend infallibility to pretty much anything that has any approbation from any ecclesiastical authority whatsoever.  It's absurd and makes infallibility into a laughingstock.

Quote from: Gregory I
If it was you would have to admit the OUM at the end of the first and the beginning of the second millennium taught positive infant damnation in hellfire. After all, it was the common teaching for 800 years after Augustine and the bishops were all consistent in teaching it. So why do you reject it now? Because St. Thomas did? Pshaw! Who is one man to stand against the unanimous opinion of all the saints up to his time!


Perfect example of the category into which BoD falls.

Yet these hypocrites refuse to admit that the doctrine held by ALL CATHOLICS WITHOUT A SINGLE EXCEPTION for 1600 YEARS, that explicit belief in Jesus Christ, the Incarnation, and the Holy Trinity are required for salvation they blow off as just some minor opinion and in no way "universal".
Title: Re: Popes on EENS
Post by: Croix de Fer on November 27, 2017, 09:15:38 PM
(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23795723_110860179695234_1689228662303980377_n.jpg?oh=8a0b4d8a43699f53fc25d447a7edca86&oe=5ACD68D1)


This interaction between the heretical priest and Eskimo in the above image exemplifies the lack of Faith, logical fallacy, contradiction & stupidity of the Novus Ordo counterfeit church.
Title: Re: Popes on EENS
Post by: Croix de Fer on November 27, 2017, 09:27:08 PM
(https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23795723_110860179695234_1689228662303980377_n.jpg?oh=8a0b4d8a43699f53fc25d447a7edca86&oe=5ACD68D1)
This interaction between the heretical priest and Eskimo in the above image exemplifies the lack of Faith, logical fallacy, contradiction & stupidity of the Novus Ordo counterfeit church.

Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ~ John 3:5

Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445):
“[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jєωs and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”


Title: Re: Popes on EENS
Post by: JezusDeKoning on November 27, 2017, 11:16:51 PM
No, it's possible that invincible ignorance is a thing - especially if one is an indigenous Eskimo in subarctic Canada. 

Those kinds of people are only ever reached by Evangelicals, who preach a form of Christianity with no God or sin and none of the sine quibus non of Our Faith. It is to them, all about being "saved", which is their excuse for any bad actions.
Title: Re: Popes on EENS
Post by: Ladislaus on November 28, 2017, 09:26:58 AM
No, it's possible that invincible ignorance is a thing - especially if one is an indigenous Eskimo in subarctic Canada.

Those kinds of people are only ever reached by Evangelicals, who preach a form of Christianity with no God or sin and none of the sine quibus non of Our Faith. It is to them, all about being "saved", which is their excuse for any bad actions.

No, it's not really "a thing" in the sense that ignorance can be salvific.  To say so is Pelagianism.  Implications of invincible ignorance are only that there's no active sin of infidelity.  One must still have supernatural faith in order to be saved, and the existence of invincible ignorance cannot change that.
Title: Re: Popes on EENS
Post by: Ladislaus on November 28, 2017, 01:28:37 PM
I myself cannot even accept "might be implicit" since the proclamation of the Vatican I council. I'm sure we both agree that it would be prudent to start with the Vatican I definitions and work backwards eliminating anything contrary or implying something contrary what has been defined.

I agree that Vatican I completely put an end to the implicit stuff.  VI taught that supernatural faith requires an object that can ONLY be known through revelation and not natural reason.  But the existence of God as Rewarder and Punisher CAN be known through natural reason.  Implicit Faith is dead in the water.
Title: Re: Popes on EENS
Post by: Cantarella on November 28, 2017, 09:06:04 PM
No, it's possible that invincible ignorance is a thing - especially if one is an indigenous Eskimo in subarctic Canada.
So tell me, why God would not let the lonely eunuch from the Bible perish in his "invincible ignorance" in the middle of Africa; but instead send Peter with the sole purpose of instructing him and water baptizing him?

If there is an example of a true invincible ignorance working, we find it in this lonely Ethiopian eunuch. Because he is sincere and truly seeking, God, Who searches all hearts and knows all dispositions, makes sure to send him a missionary in the middle of nowhere. A true, salvific invincible ignorance is that which is so strong that actually calls God to send someone to offer the tangible Sacraments to the poor, persistent soul who is calling, instead of letting him perish without that which is much necessary for salvation, according to what has been divinely revealed.
Title: Re: Popes on EENS
Post by: Cantarella on November 29, 2017, 09:01:26 AM
Sorry, I meant Philip the Evangelist in my previous post. I'm on my phone and sometimes it is a bit of a hassle to edit posts.