Author Topic: Popes on EENS  (Read 2225 times)

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Offline tdrev123

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Popes on EENS
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2017, 07:49:03 PM »
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  • Not even the Code of canon law is infallible.  It is addressed to the Latin Church, not the universal church, which is a requirement for infallibility.

    You would be laughed out of any seminary, novas ordo, indult, sspx, MHT, sspv etc. for saying catechisms are all infallible.

    You don't even know basic theology.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Popes on EENS
    « Reply #31 on: March 18, 2017, 07:53:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: tdrev123
    Not even the Code of canon law is infallible.  It is addressed to the Latin Church, not the universal church, which is a requirement for infallibility.


    That's not true.  Something addressed to the Latin Church is considered universal in scope (vs. something addressed to a particular church or region).


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Popes on EENS
    « Reply #32 on: March 18, 2017, 07:55:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    All you Feeneyites keep doing is taking potshots and running away. You can't seem to follow and hold a discursive discussion right through.


    Nobody's running away.  We refute your positions and then you claim that no one has addressed your point.  Honestly, you and bosco bore me; you have the combined intellect of a turnip.

    That's Cushingite Tactic #4.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Popes on EENS
    « Reply #33 on: March 18, 2017, 07:59:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    When it involves approved Catholic Catechisms, and generally approved books for the clergy & laity, it is part of the ordinary magisterium.


    Yes, those can be parts of the ordinary magisterium.  But the ordinary magisterium is infallible when it's universal.  Baltimore Catechism does not constitute universality by any stretch of the imagination.

    Quote from: Bumphrey
    The Church CANNOT fail to notice within a generation that something is dangerous to their faith.


    False.  This is your stupid dogmatic sedevacantist "negative infallibility" crap again.  There's no divine guarantee that the Church will condemn every error that's floating out there.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Popes on EENS
    « Reply #34 on: March 18, 2017, 08:03:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: Gregory I
    Actually the OUM is when all the bishops in all the world with the Pope teach that a doctrine is to be considered revealed by God. It is absolutely NOT the common holding of an opinion.


    THIS ^^^

    That's the Vatican I definition, but these idiot dogmatic sedevacantists effectively extend infallibility to pretty much anything that has any approbation from any ecclesiastical authority whatsoever.  It's absurd and makes infallibility into a laughingstock.

    Quote from: Gregory I
    If it was you would have to admit the OUM at the end of the first and the beginning of the second millennium taught positive infant damnation in hellfire. After all, it was the common teaching for 800 years after Augustine and the bishops were all consistent in teaching it. So why do you reject it now? Because St. Thomas did? Pshaw! Who is one man to stand against the unanimous opinion of all the saints up to his time!


    Perfect example of the category into which BoD falls.

    Yet these hypocrites refuse to admit that the doctrine held by ALL CATHOLICS WITHOUT A SINGLE EXCEPTION for 1600 YEARS, that explicit belief in Jesus Christ, the Incarnation, and the Holy Trinity are required for salvation they blow off as just some minor opinion and in no way "universal".


    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Popes on EENS
    « Reply #35 on: November 27, 2017, 09:15:38 PM »
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  • This interaction between the heretical priest and Eskimo in the above image exemplifies the lack of Faith, logical fallacy, contradiction & stupidity of the Novus Ordo counterfeit church.
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Popes on EENS
    « Reply #36 on: November 27, 2017, 09:27:08 PM »
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  • This interaction between the heretical priest and Eskimo in the above image exemplifies the lack of Faith, logical fallacy, contradiction & stupidity of the Novus Ordo counterfeit church.

    Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ~ John 3:5

    Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445):
    “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”


    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Popes on EENS
    « Reply #37 on: November 27, 2017, 11:16:51 PM »
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  • No, it's possible that invincible ignorance is a thing - especially if one is an indigenous Eskimo in subarctic Canada. 

    Those kinds of people are only ever reached by Evangelicals, who preach a form of Christianity with no God or sin and none of the sine quibus non of Our Faith. It is to them, all about being "saved", which is their excuse for any bad actions.
    Léon Degrelle, santo subito


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Popes on EENS
    « Reply #38 on: November 28, 2017, 09:26:58 AM »
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  • No, it's possible that invincible ignorance is a thing - especially if one is an indigenous Eskimo in subarctic Canada.

    Those kinds of people are only ever reached by Evangelicals, who preach a form of Christianity with no God or sin and none of the sine quibus non of Our Faith. It is to them, all about being "saved", which is their excuse for any bad actions.

    No, it's not really "a thing" in the sense that ignorance can be salvific.  To say so is Pelagianism.  Implications of invincible ignorance are only that there's no active sin of infidelity.  One must still have supernatural faith in order to be saved, and the existence of invincible ignorance cannot change that.

    Offline tornpage

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    Re: Popes on EENS
    « Reply #39 on: November 28, 2017, 11:19:11 AM »
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  • In his book on Michael Davies, Michael Davies, An Evaluation, John Daly has an excellent chapter on Davies's "heresies" on EENS. 

    Worthy of note is Daly's comments here:


    Quote
    For the Church’s children include, not only those whose attachment to her is formally accomplished, i.e. her baptized members, but also those who have merely a “virtual” membership effected by their desire to join her; and although this desire would be explicit in the case of catechumens, it might also be implicit in the case, perhaps, of some uneducated savage, raised in the woods among brute animals, who has ever striven to follow his conscience and has been found worthy to receive supernatural enlightenment from God.

    (Page 509). 

    For Daly, this "supernatural enlightenment" which is necessary for the necessary "supernatural faith" required for salvation, includes knowledge of the Trinity and Incarnation. Daly notes in footnote 25 on page 507:

    Quote
    The Church has not condemned those theologians who in recent centuries have suggested the hypothesis that explicit belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation may not in all circumstances be necessary, but the contrary is the better supported view.

    As you can see from the first quote, "it might be implicit . . .," Daly is cautious and I believe accurate in his presentation on the issue, and does not concede the liberals an inch he doesn't believe Church teaching requires him to. 

    The chapter, and the book, is a very good read. 
    "[L]et us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is 'one God, one faith, one baptism' [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadem

    Offline tornpage

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    Re: Popes on EENS
    « Reply #40 on: November 28, 2017, 11:29:09 AM »
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  • John Daly's book, Michael Davies, An Evaluation, is available for free download by Novus Ordo Watch:

    https://novusordowatch.org/2017/11/errors-of-michael-davies-refutation/
    "[L]et us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is 'one God, one faith, one baptism' [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadem


    Offline GJC

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    Re: Popes on EENS
    « Reply #41 on: November 28, 2017, 01:03:11 PM »
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  • In his book on Michael Davies, Michael Davies, An Evaluation, John Daly has an excellent chapter on Davies's "heresies" on EENS.

    Worthy of note is Daly's comments here:


    For Daly, this "supernatural enlightenment" which is necessary for the necessary "supernatural faith" required for salvation, includes knowledge of the Trinity and Incarnation. Daly notes in footnote 25 on page 507:

    As you can see from the first quote, "it might be implicit . . .," Daly is cautious and I believe accurate in his presentation on the issue, and does not concede the liberals an inch he doesn't believe Church teaching requires him to.

    The chapter, and the book, is a very good read.
    I myself cannot even accept "might be implicit" since the proclamation of the Vatican I council. I'm sure we both agree that it would be prudent to start with the Vatican I definitions and work backwards eliminating anything contrary or implying something contrary what has been defined.

    Chapter 3 on Faith:
    2. This faith, which is the beginning of human salvation, the Catholic Church professes to be a supernatural virtue, by means of which, with the grace of God inspiring and assisting us, we believe to be true what He has revealed...

    What has He revealed? Jesus is His Son right? The Good news!

    6. Now, although the assent of faith is by no means a blind movement of the mind, yet no one can accept the gospel preaching in the way that is necessary for achieving salvation without the inspiration and illumination of the Holy Spirit, who gives to all facility in accepting and believing the truth...

    How is it then that someone could make an assent to faith and accept the gospel preaching without believing in Christ explicitly?

    It is easy for me to disregard the implicit faith theory started in the 16th century because the Vatican I council had not convened yet. But those who continue to advance this minority theory as a majority, apparently didn't look at the Vatican I canons in the seminary.





    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Popes on EENS
    « Reply #42 on: November 28, 2017, 01:28:37 PM »
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  • I myself cannot even accept "might be implicit" since the proclamation of the Vatican I council. I'm sure we both agree that it would be prudent to start with the Vatican I definitions and work backwards eliminating anything contrary or implying something contrary what has been defined.

    I agree that Vatican I completely put an end to the implicit stuff.  VI taught that supernatural faith requires an object that can ONLY be known through revelation and not natural reason.  But the existence of God as Rewarder and Punisher CAN be known through natural reason.  Implicit Faith is dead in the water.

    Offline tornpage

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    Re: Popes on EENS
    « Reply #43 on: November 28, 2017, 01:32:49 PM »
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  • I myself cannot even accept "might be implicit" since the proclamation of the Vatican I council. I'm sure we both agree that it would be prudent to start with the Vatican I definitions and work backwards eliminating anything contrary or implying something contrary what has been defined.

    Chapter 3 on Faith:
    2. This faith, which is the beginning of human salvation, the Catholic Church professes to be a supernatural virtue, by means of which, with the grace of God inspiring and assisting us, we believe to be true what He has revealed...

    What has He revealed? Jesus is His Son right? The Good news!

    6. Now, although the assent of faith is by no means a blind movement of the mind, yet no one can accept the gospel preaching in the way that is necessary for achieving salvation without the inspiration and illumination of the Holy Spirit, who gives to all facility in accepting and believing the truth...

    How is it then that someone could make an assent to faith and accept the gospel preaching without believing in Christ explicitly?

    It is easy for me to disregard the implicit faith theory started in the 16th century because the Vatican I council had not convened yet. But those who continue to advance this minority theory as a majority, apparently didn't look at the Vatican I canons in the seminary.

    Maybe the quote wasn't clear. 

    In the first quote Daly is talking about an "implicit desire" to enter the Church, not "implicit faith" in Christ. 


    Quote
    For Daly, this "supernatural enlightenment" which is necessary for the necessary "supernatural faith" required for salvation, includes knowledge of the Trinity and Incarnation

    "[L]et us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is 'one God, one faith, one baptism' [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadem

    Offline GJC

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    Re: Popes on EENS
    « Reply #44 on: November 28, 2017, 01:38:31 PM »
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  • I agree that Vatican I completely put an end to the implicit stuff.  VI taught that supernatural faith requires an object that can ONLY be known through revelation and not natural reason.  But the existence of God as Rewarder and Punisher CAN be known through natural reason.  Implicit Faith is dead in the water.
    Yes, so it strikes me as odd when someone uses St Alphonsus to support their theory of implicit faith. Alphonsus died almost a century BEFORE Vatican I.

    If he were alive today, he would have most certainly shot down this implicit less-probable position as erroneous, especially when he never held it in the first place.



     

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