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Offline MarylandTrad

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Popes on EENS
« on: March 16, 2017, 05:45:55 PM »
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    The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is small reference of their teachings on the matter:

    Ordinary Magisterium

    Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

    Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

    Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

    Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

    Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

    Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

    Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

    “He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

    Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

    Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

    Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

    Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

    "The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a man who thinks other people can get along without It. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who thinks he needs It but someone else does not. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who offers others any charity ahead of this Charity of the Bread of Life." -Fr. Leonard Feeney, Bread of Life

    Offline MarylandTrad

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    Popes on EENS
    « Reply #1 on: March 16, 2017, 05:47:28 PM »
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    Extraordinary Magisterium

    Then, as though to set this constant teaching of the Fathers, Doctors and Popes “in concrete,” so to speak, we have the following definitions from the Solemn Magisterium of the Church:

    Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved…”

    Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

    Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

    Quote
    Vatican I: “We teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
    Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable. So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.”

    Vatican I: ''The doctrine of the faith which God has revealed has not been proposed to human intelligences to be perfected by them as if it were a philosophical system, but as a divine deposit entrusted to the Spouse of Christ to be faithfully guarded and infallibly interpreted. Hence also that sense of the sacred dogmas is to be perpetually retained which our Holy Mother the Church has once declared, nor is this sense ever to be abandoned on plea or pretext of a more profound comprehension of the truth.
    "The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a man who thinks other people can get along without It. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who thinks he needs It but someone else does not. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who offers others any charity ahead of this Charity of the Bread of Life." -Fr. Leonard Feeney, Bread of Life


    Offline saintbosco13

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    Popes on EENS
    « Reply #2 on: March 16, 2017, 11:32:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: MarylandTrad
    http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

    The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is small reference of their teachings on the matter:

    Ordinary Magisterium

    Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

    Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

    Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

    Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

    Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

    Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

    Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

    “He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

    Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

    Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

    Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

    Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)



    As if anyone would disagree with these quotes! There are just as many quotes from popes and Doctors of the Church that approve of baptism of desire and blood (see baptismofdesire.com). All the quotes must be taken collectively.

    What you are doing here is the equivalent of the Protestant argument that "faith alone" is required for salvation while ignoring all of the quotes that say "good works" are also required.




    Offline Gregory I

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    Popes on EENS
    « Reply #3 on: March 16, 2017, 11:39:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: saintbosco13
    Quote from: MarylandTrad
    http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

    The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is small reference of their teachings on the matter:

    Ordinary Magisterium

    Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

    Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

    Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

    Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

    Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

    Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

    Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

    “He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

    Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

    Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

    Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

    Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)



    As if anyone would disagree with these quotes! There are just as many quotes from popes and Doctors of the Church that approve of baptism of desire and blood (see baptismofdesire.com). All the quotes must be taken collectively.

    What you are doing here is the equivalent of the Protestant argument that "faith alone" is required for salvation while ignoring all of the quotes that say "good works" are also required.





    I would like to see as many detailing that those who die ignorant of the faith are saved.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline An even Seven

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    Popes on EENS
    « Reply #4 on: March 16, 2017, 11:50:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: saintbosco13
    Quote from: MarylandTrad
    http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

    The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is small reference of their teachings on the matter:

    Ordinary Magisterium

    Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

    Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

    Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

    Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

    Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

    Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

    Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

    “He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

    Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

    Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

    Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

    Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)



    As if anyone would disagree with these quotes! There are just as many quotes from popes and Doctors of the Church that approve of baptism of desire and blood (see baptismofdesire.com). All the quotes must be taken collectively.

    What you are doing here is the equivalent of the Protestant argument that "faith alone" is required for salvation while ignoring all of the quotes that say "good works" are also required.





    WHAT?????!!!!!!!!
    First, He listed all POPES, and we know that infallibility can only come from a Pope.
    Second, there are not any legitimate quotes from Popes, and definitely no Dogmatic ones, confirming BOD/BOB.
    Third, it is entirely impossible for these quotes to be "taken collectively" if we do not want contradiction. This is why the Church has always taught that the Church's teaching always trumps a theologian or doctor if they are not aligned. They are not guarded with infallibility.
    "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."


    Offline saintbosco13

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    « Reply #5 on: March 17, 2017, 12:28:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: An even Seven
    Quote from: saintbosco13
    Quote from: MarylandTrad
    http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

    The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is small reference of their teachings on the matter:

    Ordinary Magisterium

    Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

    Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

    Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

    Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

    Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

    Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

    Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

    “He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

    Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

    Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

    Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

    Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)



    As if anyone would disagree with these quotes! There are just as many quotes from popes and Doctors of the Church that approve of baptism of desire and blood (see baptismofdesire.com). All the quotes must be taken collectively.

    What you are doing here is the equivalent of the Protestant argument that "faith alone" is required for salvation while ignoring all of the quotes that say "good works" are also required.



    WHAT?????!!!!!!!!
    First, He listed all POPES, and we know that infallibility can only come from a Pope.
    Second, there are not any legitimate quotes from Popes, and definitely no Dogmatic ones, confirming BOD/BOB.
    Third, it is entirely impossible for these quotes to be "taken collectively" if we do not want contradiction. This is why the Church has always taught that the Church's teaching always trumps a theologian or doctor if they are not aligned. They are not guarded with infallibility.


    Brother, you are embarrassing yourself severely here. This post of yours is a perfect example of the non-Catholic, heretical stuff you keep posting. You don't understand your faith and you need to LEARN it before you post here.

    For example, saying, "we know that infallibility can only come from a pope". LOOK VERY CLOSELY at these definitions of infallibility which consists of 3 components; Popes, General Councils, and the ordinary magisterium (notice what the ordinary magisterium consists of):

    Definition of “Infallibility” from “A Catholic Dictionary”, 1951: "This infallibility resides (A) in the pope personally and alone; (B) in an ecumenical Council subject to papal confirmation (these infallibilities are distinct but correlative); (C) in the bishops of the Church, dispersed throughout the world, teaching definitively in union with the pope. This is not a different infallibility from (B) but is the ordinary exercise of a prerogative (hence called the "ordinary magisterium") which is manifested in a striking manner in an ecumenical Council. This ordinary magisterium is exercised by pastoral letters, preaching, catechisms, the censorship of publications dealing with faith and morals, the reprobation of doctrines and books: it is thus in continuous function and embraces the whole deposit of faith."

    First Vatican Council: "All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."

    Commentary on Canon Law (1918) on the ordinary magisterium: "What the Holy Fathers and the theologians hold unanimously as a matter of faith and morals, is also de fide."

    If something is "de fide" that means it MUST be believed, which means it cannot contain error, which means it's INFALLIBLE. Now go back and look at the statement you made in saying, "we know infallibility can only come from a pope" and compare it to the definitions just given, which state infallibility ALSO comes from the unanimous teaching of the Holy Fathers and theologians. Your statement is heretical plain and simple, and because this is what you believe, you run into constant contradictions. This is your entire problem - you don't know the foundation of how things work so you are coming to incorrect conclusions ALL OVER the place.




    Offline saintbosco13

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    « Reply #6 on: March 17, 2017, 12:34:27 AM »
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  • Quote from: Gregory I
    Quote from: saintbosco13
    Quote from: MarylandTrad
    http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

    The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is small reference of their teachings on the matter:

    Ordinary Magisterium

    Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

    Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

    Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

    Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

    Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

    Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

    Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

    “He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

    Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

    Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

    Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

    Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)



    As if anyone would disagree with these quotes! There are just as many quotes from popes and Doctors of the Church that approve of baptism of desire and blood (see baptismofdesire.com). All the quotes must be taken collectively.

    What you are doing here is the equivalent of the Protestant argument that "faith alone" is required for salvation while ignoring all of the quotes that say "good works" are also required.



    I would like to see as many detailing that those who die ignorant of the faith are saved.


    The truth on the matter has nothing to do with how many quotes can be collected. Many quotes are collected primarily because the Feeneyites are thickheaded, but in reality,  if even only one true Pope gives us a quote on something, we must believe it. Catholics don't go around counting how many popes said something before they believe it.





    Offline Gregory I

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    « Reply #7 on: March 17, 2017, 01:30:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: saintbosco13
    Quote from: Gregory I
    Quote from: saintbosco13
    Quote from: MarylandTrad
    http://catholicism.org/eens-popes.html

    The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.” Here is small reference of their teachings on the matter:

    Ordinary Magisterium

    Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 – 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

    Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

    Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

    Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

    Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

    Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

    Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

    “He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

    Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 – 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

    Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 – 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

    Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 – 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation….Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

    Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 – 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)



    As if anyone would disagree with these quotes! There are just as many quotes from popes and Doctors of the Church that approve of baptism of desire and blood (see baptismofdesire.com). All the quotes must be taken collectively.

    What you are doing here is the equivalent of the Protestant argument that "faith alone" is required for salvation while ignoring all of the quotes that say "good works" are also required.



    I would like to see as many detailing that those who die ignorant of the faith are saved.


    The truth on the matter has nothing to do with how many quotes can be collected. Many quotes are collected primarily because the Feeneyites are thickheaded, but in reality,  if even only one true Pope gives us a quote on something, we must believe it. Catholics don't go around counting how many popes said something before they believe it.






    So which true Pope has said, Not that those who die in Invincible Ignorance CAN be saved (Which is related to potential, not means), but those who die in invincible ignorance but full of good works ARE saved (Which is related actuality, not potentiality)? Where's that golden nugget hiding?
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila


    Offline An even Seven

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    « Reply #8 on: March 17, 2017, 05:28:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: bosco
    Brother, you are embarrassing yourself severely here. This post of yours is a perfect example of the non-Catholic, heretical stuff you keep posting. You don't understand your faith and you need to LEARN it before you post here.

    For example, saying, "we know that infallibility can only come from a pope". LOOK VERY CLOSELY at these definitions of infallibility which consists of 3 components; Popes, General Councils, and the ordinary magisterium (notice what the ordinary magisterium consists of):


    Wow, you think that the belief that all infallibility comes from the Pope is heretical. (To clarify, I believe it comes from Our Lord, who delegated it to only the Pope.) I got this from Our Lord who prayed that Peter’s faith would not fail. To the exclusion of the other apostles and the rest of mankind for that matter.
    The Vatican Council even teaches this.
    Quote from: Vatican Council
    To satisfy this pastoral duty, our predecessors always gave tireless attention that the saving doctrine of Christ be spread among all the peoples of the earth, and with equal care they watched that, wherever it was received, it was preserved sound and pure. Therefore, the bishops of the whole world, now individually, now gathered in Synods, following a long custom of the churches and the formula of the ancient rule, referred to this Holy See those dangers particularly which emerged in the affairs of faith, that there especially the damages to faith might be repaired where faith cannot experience a failure. * The Roman Pontiffs, moreover, according as the condition of the times and affairs advised, sometimes by calling ecumenical Councils or by examining the opinion of the Church spread throughout the world; sometimes by particular synods, sometimes by employing other helps which divine Providence supplied, have defined that those matters must be held which with God's help they have recognized as in agreement with Sacred Scripture and apostolic tradition. For, the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter that by His revelation they might disclose new doctrine, but that by His help they might guard sacredly the revelation transmitted through the apostles and the deposit of faith, and might faithfully set it forth. Indeed, all the venerable fathers have embraced their apostolic doctrine, and the holy orthodox Doctors have venerated and followed it, knowing full well that the See of St. Peter always remains unimpaired by any error, according to the divine promise of our Lord the Savior made to the chief of His disciples: "I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren" [Luke 22:32].


    Quote from: bosco
    Definition of “Infallibility” from “A Catholic Dictionary”, 1951: "This infallibility resides (A) in the pope personally and alone; (B) in an ecumenical Council subject to papal confirmation (these infallibilities are distinct but correlative); (C) in the bishops of the Church, dispersed throughout the world, teaching definitively in union with the pope. This is not a different infallibility from (B) but is the ordinary exercise of a prerogative (hence called the "ordinary magisterium") which is manifested in a striking manner in an ecumenical Council. This ordinary magisterium is exercised by pastoral letters, preaching, catechisms, the censorship of publications dealing with faith and morals, the reprobation of doctrines and books: it is thus in continuous function and embraces the whole deposit of faith."


    The definition from the Dictionary is different than the one given in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Here's a quote from the C.E.
    Quote from: Catholic Encyclopedia
    Mutual relations of the organs of infallibility

    A few brief remarks under this head will serve to make the Catholic conception of ecclesiastical infallibility still clearer. Three organs have been mentioned:
    •the bishops dispersed throughout the world in union with the Holy See;
    •ecumenical councils under the headship of the pope; and
    •the pope himself separately.
    Through the first of these is exercised what theologians describe as the ordinarium magisterium, i.e. the common or everyday teaching authority of the Church; through the second and third the magisterium solemne, or undeniably definitive authority. Practically speaking, at the present day, and for many centuries in the past, only the decisions of ecumenical councils and the ex cathedra teaching of the pope have been treated as strictly definitive in the canonical sense, and the function of the magisterium ordinarium has been concerned with the effective promulgation and maintenance of what has been formally defined by the magisterium solemne or may be legitimately deduced from its definitions.

    Even the ordinarium magisterium is not independent of the pope. In other words, it is only bishops who are in corporate union with the pope, the Divinely constituted head and centre of Christ's mystical body, the one true Church, who have any claim to share in the charisma by which the infallibility of their morally unanimous teaching is divinely guaranteed according to the terms of Christ's promises. And as the pope's supremacy is also an essential factor in the constitution of an ecumenical council…


    I hope that you notice that Catechisms are not part of the organs of infallibility. Even when it describes the Bishops as the Ordinary Magisterium, it must be in union with the Pope and is only concerned with the promulgation and maintenance of what has been DEFINED by the Solemn Magisterium. Therefore, the teachings which come from the Ordinary can never evolve or be explained in a manner that either contradicts the original Dogma or renders its original purpose meaningless. This is why the people who believe the Dogma EENS exactly as it’s defined, do not start delving into how it can be circumvented. Being saved in the soul of the Church, being within but not a member of, not having explicit faith etc…, these all change the DOGMA of EENS into a meaning that is contradictory to the simple words of the Definition.

    Quote from: bosco
    First Vatican Council: "All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."


    Notice that this involves divinely revealed truths. The speculation of theologians are not divinely revealed truths. Nor are they promised that their faith would not fail.


    Quote from: bosco
    If something is "de fide" that means it MUST be believed, which means it cannot contain error, which means it's INFALLIBLE.


    It depends on who says it is de fide. There are instances where Churchmen considered certain things de fide but ended up being challenged and overturned. If a Pope or Council solemnly declares something to be De Fide, then it would be so. This does not apply to individuals other than the Pope.
    I would like to add something from the C.E. concerning the authority of the Holy Office.
    Quote from: Catholic Encyclopedia
    As to the Galileo affair, it is quite enough to point out the fact that the condemnation of the heliocentric theory was the work of a fallible tribunal. The pope cannot delegate the exercise of his infallible authority to the Roman Congregations, and whatever issues formally in the name of any of these, even when approved and confirmed in the ordinary official way by the pope, does not pretend to be ex cathedra and infallible. The pope, of course, can convert doctrinal decisions of the Holy Office, which are not in themselves infallible, into ex cathedra papal pronouncements, but in doing so he must comply with the conditions already explained — which neither Paul V nor Urban VIII did in the Galileo case.

    I would add to the end of that, which neither Pope Pius XII did concerning the 1949 letter.
    "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #9 on: March 17, 2017, 05:32:54 AM »
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  • Quote from: saintbosco13
    As if anyone would disagree with these quotes!


    Whoa! Watch out bosco! You are admitting these teachings are the same ideas as the ideas proposed by the periodical From the Housetops that were promoted as the authentic teaching of the Catholic Church, but per SH, are far from being so and are very dangerous not only for those in the Church but also for those who live outside her.





    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    « Reply #10 on: March 17, 2017, 06:59:15 AM »
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  • Sb13, they don't understand infallibility, and that the ordinary magisterium is infallible. They don't know how to take things collectively and reconcile it ALL. They pick and choose from the magisterium as did the Protestants do from Scripture.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.


    Offline Gregory I

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    « Reply #11 on: March 17, 2017, 08:22:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Sb13, they don't understand infallibility, and that the ordinary magisterium is infallible. They don't know how to take things collectively and reconcile it ALL. They pick and choose from the magisterium as did the Protestants do from Scripture.


    Nonsense, its you want to posit anonymous Christianity. People die never having heard the name of Christ, with no faith and with no charity and you want to grant them the possibility of Heaven.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    « Reply #12 on: March 17, 2017, 09:23:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: Gregory I
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Sb13, they don't understand infallibility, and that the ordinary magisterium is infallible. They don't know how to take things collectively and reconcile it ALL. They pick and choose from the magisterium as did the Protestants do from Scripture.


    Nonsense, its you want to posit anonymous Christianity. People die never having heard the name of Christ, with no faith and with no charity and you want to grant them the possibility of Heaven.


    I have explicitly said here on this sub-forum that NOBODY gets to heaven without supernatural faith and supernatural charity -the divine virtues. You don't understand the subject.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Gregory I

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    « Reply #13 on: March 17, 2017, 10:27:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Quote from: Gregory I
    Quote from: BumphreyHogart
    Sb13, they don't understand infallibility, and that the ordinary magisterium is infallible. They don't know how to take things collectively and reconcile it ALL. They pick and choose from the magisterium as did the Protestants do from Scripture.


    Nonsense, its you want to posit anonymous Christianity. People die never having heard the name of Christ, with no faith and with no charity and you want to grant them the possibility of Heaven.


    I have explicitly said here on this sub-forum that NOBODY gets to heaven without supernatural faith and supernatural charity -the divine virtues. You don't understand the subject.


    Really, then you belief all the invincibly ignorant who are of good will will come to hold the faith without ignorance of Christ and the Trinity?
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline saintbosco13

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    « Reply #14 on: March 17, 2017, 01:00:16 PM »
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  • Even Seven,

    You're absolutely killing me with your heresies. KILLING me.

    Quote from: An even Seven

     Wow, you think that the belief that all infallibility comes from the Pope is heretical.

    AND

    The speculation of theologians are not divinely revealed truths.




    You are directly denying A Commentary on Canon Law (1918) on the ordinary magisterium: "What the Holy Fathers and the theologians hold unanimously as a matter of faith and morals, is also de fide."

    A Catholic Dictionary says exactly the same thing under the definition of Magisterium: "The ordinary magisterium is continually exercised by the Church especially in her universal practices connected with faith and morals, in the unanimous consent of the Fathers and theologians, in the decisions of the Roman Congregations concerning faith and morals, in the common sense of the Faithful, and various historical documents, in which the faith is declared. All these are founts of a teaching which as a whole is infallible...”

    Both of the above are trusted sources with imprimatur.

    The Catholic Encyclopedia, under the document on Dogma, confirms this:

    "...some theologians confine the word defined to doctrines solemnly defined by the pope or by a general council, while a revealed truth becomes a dogma even when proposed by the Church through her ordinary magisterium or teaching office”

    WAKE UP!!!!


    Quote from: An even Seven

     The definition from the Dictionary is different than the one given in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Here's a quote from the C.E.


    The typical Feeneyite response that we've been seeing over and over in these discussions; that the Church is contradicting itself. Look again at the definition you provided from the CE and it is the SAME from A Catholic Dictionary.

    I also noticed you quote the CE when it suits you, and condemn it when it doesn't.  So hypocritical. Do you trust this resource or not?


    Quote from: An even Seven

     I hope that you notice that Catechisms are not part of the organs of infallibility. Even when it describes the Bishops as the Ordinary Magisterium, it must be in union with the Pope and is only concerned with the promulgation and maintenance of what has been DEFINED by the Solemn Magisterium. Therefore, the teachings which come from the Ordinary can never evolve or be explained in a manner that either contradicts the original Dogma or renders its original purpose meaningless. This is why the people who believe the Dogma EENS exactly as it’s defined, do not start delving into how it can be circumvented. Being saved in the soul of the Church, being within but not a member of, not having explicit faith etc…, these all change the DOGMA of EENS into a meaning that is contradictory to the simple words of the Definition.



    UNBELIEVABLE. You sound like a third grader trying to lecture people on how the magisterium works. Catechisms THEMSELVES are not infallible, but they are VEHICLES used by the ordinary magisterium to teach infallible doctrines. For instance, the Summa Theologica and the Baltimore catechism, while not infallible in and of themselves, they BOTH teach individual infallible doctrines continuously taught throughout the history of the Church. They are therefore VEHICLES of the magisterium. When a doctrine is taught continuously throughout the Church without being condemned (i.e. baptism of desire), it is part of the ordinary magisterium and must be believed. THAT is why the CE quote I gave above states, "while a revealed truth becomes a dogma even when proposed by the Church through her ordinary magisterium or teaching office”


    Quote from: An even Seven

     It depends on who says it is de fide. There are instances where Churchmen considered certain things de fide but ended up being challenged and overturned. If a Pope or Council solemnly declares something to be De Fide, then it would be so. This does not apply to individuals other than the Pope.


    Holy smokes. You are creating phony doctrine out of thin air here. No one has to "say" something is de fide, it simply IS when the Church Fathers and Theologians teach it continuously, as the quotes I just provided above state. You really need to buy some traditional Catholic books and LEARN before you post any further.









     

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