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Author Topic: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire  (Read 6609 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #75 on: March 14, 2021, 11:40:19 AM »
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    • Quote from: RomanTheo on March 14, 2021, 12:28:04 AM
    Canon 737, 1917 Code: “Baptism, the door and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire necessary unto salvation for all, is not validly conferred except through the ablution of true and natural water with the prescribed form of words.”

    Canon 1239, 1917 Code: “Those who have died without baptism are not to be given ecclesiastical burial. Catechumens who die without baptism through no fault of their own are to be counted among the baptized.”

    As I've said before, the Church has left open and allowed the opinion that BoD is possible for Catechumens.  You'll note that 1239 addresses only Catechumens (just like your earlier quote from Pius XII).

    You left out the first part of Canon 1239, as most BoDers do.  That first part says that only the baptized may receive Christian burial.  This next sections you cite here says, in the context of allowing Christian burial, Catechumens are to be counted among the baptized.  In other words, all this is saying is that Catechumens may receive Christian burial.  Catechumens are not IN FACT baptized, as every acknowledges, but they are to be considered baptized for the purposes of the rule that only the baptized may receive Christian burial.

    Prior Church discipline was to refuse Catechumens Christian burial.  Christian burial is no guarantee of salvation.

    Do you believe in BoD for Catechumens only?  If so, then I'm not interested in debating that subject.
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #76 on: March 14, 2021, 11:42:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: RomanTheo on March 14, 2021, 11:18:18 AM
    The Sacrament St. Thomas was referring to is the Eucharist, not baptism.
    What did he teach that was controversial about the Eucharist that did not also apply to a BOD?  He admitted he could be wrong, no such admission is offered by the Church pertaining to defined dogmas.

    Why insist on posting the contradictory-to-dogma opinions of the lesser authority of St. Thomas and other great saints?

    Do you believe them to have authority over defined dogma?
     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #77 on: March 14, 2021, 11:46:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: MyrnaM on March 14, 2021, 10:11:10 AM
    Complaining about the multiplicity of copy and paste to prove the Church teaches BOD/BOB is because it IS WHAT IT IS.  The deniers of said teachings have NOTHING to copy paste their erroneous position with.  

    Stubborn for examples murmurs about the readings in the Catholic books illustrating the truth of the doctrine forgetting they are stamped with the Nihil Obstat - Imprimatur
    So what! There are a million books full of heresy stamped with the Nihil Obstat - Imprimatur. Why not quote only defined dogma? Because it has no stamp of Nihil Obstat - Imprimatur? :facepalm:
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #78 on: March 14, 2021, 11:50:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: RomanTheo on March 14, 2021, 12:28:04 AM
    St. Ambrose: “But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism. Tell me: What else is in your power other than the desire, the request? But he even had this desire for a long time, that, when he should come into Italy, he would be initiated, and recently he signified a desire to be baptized by me, and for this reason above all others he thought that I ought to be summoned. Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested? And because he asked, he received, and therefore is it said: 'By whatsover death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest.’ (Wisdom 4:7).”

    As addressed, oh, about 50 times now, this is totally ambiguous.  But let's go through it again.

    This could just as easily be a reference to a Baptism of Blood, since Valentinian was murdered precisely because he had rejected Arianism.

    Also, it could reflect a possible hope that someone near Valentinian baptized him as he lay dying.  Back before the days of the internet, the details were probably sketchy in terms of what actually transpired.

    Finally, it could just be a generic statement that he received what he sought, implying that if he didn't receive it, it was because he didn't REALLY seek it.

    Elsewhere, St. Ambrose rejected the notion of the possibility of salvation for even virtuous Catechumens if they do not receive the Sacrament.

    Finally, when St. Augustine was speculating about BoD, he cited no authorities, other than St. Cyprian's belief in BoB ... and then extended it.  If St. Ambrose had believed in it, surely Augustine would have cited it.

    In terms of Baptism of Blood, there's evidence that the (handful of) Fathers who believed in it considered it to actually be the Sacrament of Baptism administered in an alternate mode, with the blood being the matter, and the angels pronouncing the words.  St. Cyprian called BoB a Sacrament.  There's an ecclesiastical manual that for the longest time had been attributed to St. Augustine, and was certainly written by someone in his circle, which says that the only alternative to the Sacrament is in fact BoB, since "all the sacred elements" (aka matter and form) were present.  St. Cyprian described martyrdom as having the martyr washed in his own blood while the angels pronounced the words.
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    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #79 on: March 14, 2021, 11:56:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on March 14, 2021, 11:42:49 AM
    What did he teach that was controversial about the Eucharist that did not also apply to a BOD?  He admitted he could be wrong, no such admission is offered by the Church pertaining to defined dogmas.

    Why insist on posting the contradictory-to-dogma opinions of the lesser authority of St. Thomas and other great saints?

    Do you believe them to have authority over defined dogma?
     
    None of the quotes I posted are contrary to any dogma.  What they are contrary to, is your erroneous private interpretation of dogma.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #80 on: March 14, 2021, 11:56:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 14, 2021, 11:50:18 AM
    As addressed, oh, about 50 times now,
    Don't waste your time with this RomanTheo, for what is the point of debating about St. Thomas's  teachings with someone who rejects St. Thomas and all the saints by believing the Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus etc. can be saved? They quote St. Thomas, while at the same time throwing him under the bus.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #81 on: March 14, 2021, 12:00:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: RomanTheo on March 14, 2021, 12:28:04 AM
    St. Augustine: "Of the Death Which the Unbaptized Suffer for the Confession of Christ:  For whatever unbaptized persons die confessing Christ, this confession is of the same efficacy for the remission of sins as if they were washed in the sacred font of baptism. For He who said, 'Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God,'(John 3:5) made also an exception in their favor, in that other sentence where He no less absolutely said, 'Whosoever shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven' (Matthew 10:32) and in another place, 'Whosoever will lose his life for my sake, shall find it.' Matthew 16:25)." (City of God, I, XIII).

    St. Augustine:  “I find that not only martyrdom for the sake of Christ may supply for what is wanting in baptism, but also faith and conversion of heart, if recourse may not be had to the celebration of the mystery for want of time. … But the want is supplied invisibly only when the administration of baptism is prevented, not by contempt for religion, but by the necessity of the moment. (On Baptism, Against the Donatists,  IV)

    First quote is a reference to Baptism of Blood, which we have discussed before.  Not only that, but it's inaccurate in that it's merely about the "confession" and makes no mention of martyrdom itself.  Someone can die confessing the faith without actually being martyred.  St. Alphonsus later claimed that BoB worked quasi-ex-opere-operato, whereas here there's no mention of that mechanism but, rather, an ex opere operantis phenomenon.

    For the second quote, I love how you snip out the first part, where he says, "Going back and forth on this, I find that ..."  It's left out because it demonstrates that this is speculation on his part rather than some kind of authoritative teaching.

    Overall, I love how you guys selectively quote the ambiguous oration by St. Ambrose and the early speculation of St. Augustine, but then CONSTANTLY and DELIBERATELY LEAVE OUT all the other Patristic quotes about BoD, in particular, from the FIVE OR SIX Church Fathers who EXPLICITLY REJECTED the notion.

    You pretend that they don't exist and simply filter them out of the equation, and that shows extreme intellectual dishonesty.  You try to demonstrate the unanimous consensus of the Fathers simply by ignoring the ones who rejected it.

    Not only that, but you refuse to cite later (post-Pelagian-controversy) St. Augustine, where he completely rejects BoD and made some of the strongest anti-BoD statements in existence.

    This puts your dishonesty on display for all to see.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #82 on: March 14, 2021, 12:01:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on March 14, 2021, 11:56:59 AM
    Don't waste your time with this RomanTheo, for what is the point of debating about St. Thomas's  teachings with someone who rejects St. Thomas and all the saints by believing the Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus etc. can be saved? They quote St. Thomas, while at the same time throwing him under the bus.

    I'm not interested in RomanTheo.  I'm only responding to expose his falsehoods to other people who might read this thread.

    I think I'm going to compile a list of the anti-BoD references from the Church Fathers and popes, write these up, and then be ready to spam them right back at the BoD spammers.  They respam the same 3 or 4 quotes every single time and ignore any of the CONTRARY evidence, exposing their intellectual dishonesty.  It's sad when a Karl Rahner has more integrity than these Traditional Catholics.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #83 on: March 14, 2021, 12:22:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 14, 2021, 11:40:19 AM
    (RomanTheo) Do you believe in BoD for Catechumens only?  If so, then I'm not interested in debating that subject.
    Good luck with getting a straight answer to your question from this RomanTheo. He is likely another spammer sitting one seat over from XavierSem. 

    Here is my 4th try:

    What flavor of BOD are you promoting here? Define your BOD in the fewest words possible (it) . Be the first BODer to ever do it on CI or anywhere else I've been to in 25+ years.
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #84 on: March 14, 2021, 12:24:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: RomanTheo on March 14, 2021, 11:56:49 AM
    None of the quotes I posted are contrary to any dogma.  What they are contrary to, is your erroneous private interpretation of dogma.
    Same tired old false accusation, I am simply reading and understanding what it says, not interpreting anything - and since they do not contradict dogma, then post dogma.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #85 on: March 14, 2021, 12:27:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: RomanTheo on March 14, 2021, 12:28:04 AM
    St. Ambrose: “But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism.....
    "The reason these faithful were grieved was because they believed that "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."

    Perhaps too, they had been Instructed by Ambrose himself, who said: 'One is the Baptism which the Church administers: the Baptism of water and the Holy Ghost, with which catechumens need to be baptized . . . Nor does the mystery of regeneration exist at all without water: 'For unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom.' Now, even the catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, with which he also signs himself; but, unless he be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." (De Mysterlls,-THE DIVINE OFFICE)".  - From Who Shall Ascend?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #86 on: March 14, 2021, 12:30:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on March 14, 2021, 12:22:12 PM
    Good luck with getting a straight answer to your question from this RomanTheo. He is likely another spammer sitting one seat over from XavierSem.

    Here is my 4th try:

    What flavor of BOD are you promoting here? Define your BOD in the fewest words possible (it) . Be the first BODer to ever do it on CI or anywhere else I've been to in 25+ years.
    None of the BODers answer clear questions, with clear answers, never have.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #87 on: March 14, 2021, 04:42:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on March 14, 2021, 12:22:12 PM
    Good luck with getting a straight answer to your question from this RomanTheo. He is likely another spammer sitting one seat over from XavierSem.

    Here is my 4th try:

    What flavor of BOD are you promoting here? Define your BOD in the fewest words possible (it) . Be the first BODer to ever do it on CI or anywhere else I've been to in 25+ years.
    A supernatural act of faith, combined with an act of perfect charity and the desire to receive baptism. This disposes the soul to receive an infusion of sanctifying grace from Christ, which makes him an adopted child of God and heir of heaven.  If he dies in this state he is saved, even if he lacks the baptismal character.

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    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #88 on: March 14, 2021, 05:01:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on March 14, 2021, 12:24:29 PM
    Same tired old false accusation, I am simply reading and understanding what it says, not interpreting anything.

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam).

    If you accept that as it is written, how can a person be saved if they die during an interregnum?  
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #89 on: March 14, 2021, 06:41:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: RomanTheo on March 14, 2021, 04:42:06 PM
    Quote
    What flavor of BOD are you promoting here? Define your BOD in the fewest words possible (it) . Be the first BODer to ever do it on CI or anywhere else I've been to in 25+ years.
    A supernatural act of faith, combined with an act of perfect charity and the desire to receive baptism. This disposes the soul to receive an infusion of sanctifying grace from Christ, which makes him an adopted child of God and heir of heaven.  If he dies in this state he is saved, even if he lacks the baptismal character.
    You deny clear dogmas, to teach that they do not mean what they say, and you expect me to believe your ambiguous sophism?  This is typical of you vipers, fake Thomists. No truth comes from you.

    Answer two simple questions:

    Why are you killing this person before God completes what is TOTALLY His doing?

    What exactly is this "desire to receive baptism", is it the explicit desire to be a baptized Catholic, the baptism of desire of the catechumen of St. Thomas? Or is it the  implicit faith of a Muslim, Hindu, Jew?
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