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Author Topic: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire  (Read 6613 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2021, 04:45:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on March 12, 2021, 03:08:43 PM
    So has anyone seen my question earlier in this thread about applying Pope Siricius' comments to catechumens?  It appears that he believes that catechumens would be lost as well.  And yet I thought that most here, like the poster above, are willing to accept the version of BOD that allows for catechumens.  

    Yes, the Pope obviously didn't believe in BoD for catechumens.  In fact, I'm certain he has catechumens in mind as those desiring Baptism when he refers to Easter being the customary time for their Baptism.

    I don't believe in BoD for catechumens either, as I believe that God will bring any who are properly disposed the Sacrament itself.

    I'm just saying that a BoD for catechumens does not have the massive ecclesiological ramifications of extending it to all manner of heretic, schismatic, and infidel.

    I'm just saying that I would not have anything more than a polite disagreement with someone who believed in BoD for catechumens, since that in itself does not absolutely wreck Catholic ecclesiology.

    What I get riled up against is the proposition that those who have no connection to the Visible Church can be saved.
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #46 on: March 12, 2021, 08:47:58 PM »
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    • Pope Siricius'  believed in BOD just as the Churches teaches it, without wiggle room. 

    I wouldn't count on all things HolyFamMon produces, they have the reputation of editing in and out, words they like or dislike often when it suits their agenda. Sometime just little words like "OR".   

    Pope Siricius knows that BOD doesn't even come into the conversation unless death came first BEFORE the proper administration of the Sacrament which the recipient was being prepared for.    

    How do I know that?   Because he was a True Pope, the church has taught BOD for centuries which qualifies Baptism of desire worthy of belief.   Pope Siricius knew that BOD is not equivalent to the Sacrament and no one should depend on it. His historical context.should be considered.  

    It would be interesting if someone would show words to deny BOD in Catholic [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Catechism books throughout past centuries.  [/color]
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #47 on: March 12, 2021, 08:50:39 PM »
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    • Please stop while you’re behind, Myrna.  I’d prefer not to pick sort that last nonsensical post of yours.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #48 on: March 13, 2021, 07:08:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 12, 2021, 09:17:47 AM
    Xavier,
    To further prove your illogical fantasies, let's show more of your theological contradictions:
    .
    1.  You say that Trent commentary is infallible.
    2.  You say that catechisms are infallible.
    3.  You say that we must believe what St Alphonsus' says is infallible.
    .
    But a statement directly from a pope on baptism/salvation is not infallible?  Are you kidding me?
    .
    You dishonestly try to dodge this contradiction by saying it's not a "dogmatic definition", which is true, but according to you, non-dogmatic definitions (see above) can also be infallible.  Contradictions, confusion and lies from you...  
    To be fair to Xavier here, isn't this what R&R adherents do all of the time though?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #49 on: March 13, 2021, 07:11:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on March 13, 2021, 07:08:16 AM
    Isn't this what R&R adherents do all of the time though?

    Except that Xaiver isn't actually R&R.  He doesn't think there's anything that wrong with V2 or the New Mass.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #50 on: March 13, 2021, 07:15:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 13, 2021, 07:11:47 AM
    Except that Xaiver isn't actually R&R.  He doesn't think there's anything that wrong with V2 or the New Mass.
    Yes, that is true.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #51 on: March 13, 2021, 07:22:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 12, 2021, 04:45:19 PM
    Yes, the Pope obviously didn't believe in BoD for catechumens.  In fact, I'm certain he has catechumens in mind as those desiring Baptism when he refers to Easter being the customary time for their Baptism.

    I don't believe in BoD for catechumens either, as I believe that God will bring any who are properly disposed the Sacrament itself.

    I'm just saying that a BoD for catechumens does not have the massive ecclesiological ramifications of extending it to all manner of heretic, schismatic, and infidel.

    I'm just saying that I would not have anything more than a polite disagreement with someone who believed in BoD for catechumens, since that in itself does not absolutely wreck Catholic ecclesiology.

    What I get riled up against is the proposition that those who have no connection to the Visible Church can be saved.
    So, doesn't that mean that he and St Robert Bellarmine (Doctor) are at odds? How is this squared?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #52 on: March 13, 2021, 07:32:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on March 13, 2021, 07:22:06 AM
    So, doesn't that mean that he and St Robert Bellarmine (Doctor) are at odds? How is this squared?

    Well, logically, one of them was wrong.  As is clear from an objective look at the evidence, some were for the notion, some against.  St. Augustine was both for AND against, having floated the idea when he was younger but then rejecting it later.

    That's why I say that the status of BoD is that it's a controverted matter among Catholics.  There's no indication whatsoever that it was revealed, and so it may never be resolved.

    On another thread, however, I posted that, if I were pope, I would fall short of condemning BoD as heretical but would forbid all discussion of it, since it does no good but lots of harm.  You see, if God does save by BoD, then not believing in it won't change that.  In fact, ironically, if someone ardently believes in BoD, that could actually UNDERMINE their desire to be baptized, making them complacent that they can be saved without Baptism ... as Fr. Feeney famously pointed out.  On the other hand, BoD very quickly leads to religious indifferentism and denial of EENS, and it is the root cause of all the Vatican II evils.

    Here's my perspective.  If I die and find out that God saved some people by BoD, then glory to God.  But until then, the only thing I know for sure that He revealed to us is that the Sacrament in re is necessary for salvation, and BoD has a tendency to completely undermine that dogma.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #53 on: March 13, 2021, 09:45:33 AM »
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    • Quote
    To be fair to Xavier here, isn't this what R&R adherents do all of the time though?
    No.  As an example, Stubborn and I would say that none of the 4 examples are infallible.  And we’d be right. 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #54 on: March 13, 2021, 10:18:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 13, 2021, 09:45:33 AM
    No.  As an example, Stubborn and I would say that none of the 4 examples are infallible.  And we’d be right.
    But many R&Rs do decide whether what Francis says is infallible or not...just as Xavier did with Siricius.
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #55 on: March 13, 2021, 12:20:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on March 13, 2021, 10:18:04 AM
    But many R&Rs do decide whether what Francis says is infallible or not...just as Xavier did with Siricius.
    By now we all should know the pope is only infallible when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. So there really is nothing for R&R to decide as far as Francis' infallibility is concerned because he has never defined a doctrine ex cathedra.

    It is worth reminding that a doctrine is a truth or belief  that all of the faithful within the Church has believed always and everywhere. That is what a doctrine is.

    A dogma is nothing more than a doctrine, defined ex cathedra. Any and all new doctrines, like all those of V2, will never be defined ex cathedra because they are new doctrines and were never believed by all the faithful all of the time.

    This is the decree of V1, it states when the pope, and only the pope is infallible, only when he speaks ex cathedra, that is "when he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church" This is when doctrine becomes defined dogma, and this is the absolute extent of the popes' infallibility per V1.

    Some theologians of the last few centuries opined V1's dogma on papal infallibility was greatly lacking, so they took it upon themselves to reward popes with additional infallibilities. Most of the faithful people accept these "add ons" or additional infallibilities as if they are de fide teachings of the Church, which helps explain why we are in this crisis. And those who believe them to be authentic teachings of the Church generally fall into one of three categories or some combination of them....1) Confused, 2) Novus Ordo 3) Sedevacantist.


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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #56 on: March 13, 2021, 12:23:57 PM »
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    • Let's take the sede vs. R&R debate elsewhere please.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #57 on: March 13, 2021, 12:27:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on March 13, 2021, 12:20:43 PM
    By now we all should know the pope is only infallible when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. So there really is nothing for R&R to decide as far as Francis' infallibility is concerned because he has never defined a doctrine ex cathedra.

    It is worth reminding that a doctrine is a truth or belief  that all of the faithful within the Church has believed always and everywhere. That is what a doctrine is.

    A dogma is nothing more than a doctrine, defined ex cathedra. Any and all new doctrines, like all those of V2, will never be defined ex cathedra because they are new doctrines and were never believed by all the faithful all of the time.

    This is the decree of V1, it states when the pope, and only the pope is infallible, only when he speaks ex cathedra, that is "when he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church" This is when doctrine becomes defined dogma, and this is the absolute extent of the popes' infallibility per V1.

    Some theologians of the last few centuries opined V1's dogma on papal infallibility was greatly lacking, so they took it upon themselves to reward popes with additional infallibilities. Most of the faithful people accept these "add ons" or additional infallibilities as if they are de fide teachings of the Church, which helps explain why we are in this crisis. And those who believe them to be authentic teachings of the Church generally fall into one of three categories or some combination of them....1) Confused, 2) Novus Ordo 3) Sedevacantist.
    Look Stubborn, I'm not getting into a R&R vs Sede argument with you. 
     
    My only point is that Xavier uses the "not infallible" card to explain any potential papal error on faith and morals.  Just because something is "not infallible" doesn't mean it gets a pass...which is what Xavier was trying to do here with Pope Siricius' comments.

    Of course, I don't agree that it's clear that Pope Siricius made an error.  
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #58 on: March 13, 2021, 12:30:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 13, 2021, 12:23:57 PM
    Let's take the sede vs. R&R debate elsewhere please.
    No thanks.
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #59 on: March 13, 2021, 02:20:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on March 12, 2021, 03:08:43 PM
    So has anyone seen my question earlier in this thread about applying Pope Siricius' comments to catechumens?  It appears that he believes that catechumens would be lost as well.  And yet I thought that most here, like the poster above, are willing to accept the version of BOD that allows for catechumens.  
    The good Pope St. Siriciius in his letter to Himerius is saying, if you are ready to be Baptised, don't delay DON'T DEPEND ON BOD The pope feared Christianity at that time was being outlawed and anyone refusing to worship Roman Gods would be killed.

    Pope St. Siricius, Letter to Himerius, 385:

    “As we maintain that the observance of the holy Paschal time should in no way be relaxed, in the same way we desire that infants who, on account of their age, cannot yet speak, or those who, in any necessity, are in want of the water of holy baptism, be succored with all possible speed, for fear that, if those who leave this world should be deprived of the life of the Kingdom for having been refused the source of salvation which they desired, this may lead to the ruin of our souls. If those threatened with shipwreck, or the attack of enemies, or the uncertainties of a siege, or those put in a hopeless condition due to some bodily sickness, ask for what in their faith is their only help, let them receive at the very moment of their request the reward of regeneration they beg for. Enough of past mistakes! From now on, let all the priests observe the aforesaid rule if they do not want to be separated from the solid apostolic rock on which Christ has built his universal Church.”
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