Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7

Author Topic: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire  (Read 6619 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 46585
  • Reputation: +27432/-5069
  • Gender: Male
Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« on: March 10, 2021, 09:03:48 AM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
    • We've heard a lot about Popes Innocent II and/or Innocent the II endorsing the notion of BoD, but the proponents of BoD ignore this decree from Pope St. Siricius.  Unlike those two letters from the Innocents, this was was presented as authoritative papal teaching, addressed to the entire Church, finishing with the statement that what he decreed should be observed by all those who  qui nolunt ab apostolicae petrae, super quam Christus universalem construxit Ecclesiam, soliditate divelli "who do not wish to be severed from the solidity of the Apostolic Rock upon which Christ founded the universal Church."  This docuмent seems to meet all the notes of papal infallibility (unlike the other two, which were not addressed to the Universal Church and in which the Popes were clearly opining rather than authoritatively teaching).

    Here's the key section.

    Quote
    Sicut sacram ergo paschalem reverentiam in nullo dicimus esse minuendam, ita infantibus qui necdum loqui poterunt per aetatem vel his, quibus in qualibet necessitate opus fuerit sacra unda baptismatis, omni volumus celeritate succurri, ne ad nostrarum perniciem tendat animarum, si negato desiderantibus fonte salutari exiens unusquisque de saeculo et regnum perdat et vitam.

    MY TRANSLATION:
    "Not to derogate in any way from the respect owed to Easter [my comment:  when Baptisms were normally done], so it is our will, in the case of infants who can not yet speak on account of their age, or in the case of those would have any kind of urgent need for the waters of Baptism, that they be given aid with all haste, lest it endanger our souls, were each an every one leaving this world to forfeit "both the kingdom and life" (very literal translation here) by denying the Saving Font to those desiring it."

    Notice that he actually uses the term "desire" (vs. votum) here.  His choice of terms is undoubtedly providential, since this teaching effectively shoots down Baptism of "Desire".

    He's saying here that "each and every one" or "every single one" of those denied the Sacrament ("wave of Baptism", "water movement of Baptism", another water word like "laver" in Trent) would lose eternal life in the Kingdom while DESIRING to receive it.

    In other words, of those desiring to receive it, every single one of them would lose their soul without the Sacrament of Baptism ("water pouring" of Baptism).
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46585
    • Reputation: +27432/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #1 on: March 10, 2021, 09:09:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • And the typical confirmation bias of those who promote BoD causes them to ignore this.

    See, unlike the BoD zealouts, the "Feeneyites" acknowledge the existence of contrary indicators or contrary evidence.  We admit that St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine, et al. believed in BoD.  There's no need to keep re-spamming these quotes over and over again.  But, being objective, we ALSO see evidence AGAINST Baptism of Desire, including the 5 or 6 Church Fathers who categorically rejected it (Fathers whom the BoD zealots filter out of the equation).

    So to look at the picture, some were in favor and some were against.  This leaves the overall status of BoD as a controverted matter.  I hold that this decree from Pope St. Siricius demolishes Baptism of Desire, as does the dogmatic definition that there's no salvation outside the "Church of the faithful."
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46585
    • Reputation: +27432/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #2 on: March 10, 2021, 09:12:10 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Now, the Pope could have said, in Latin, ne quis ... lest ANY of those lose their soul in being denied the Sacrament while desiring it.

    No, instead, he quite deliberately uses the emphatic Latin unusquisque which means EVERY SINGLE ONE.

    He's saying that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them would be lost if they did not receive the Sacrament (the "washing" or "pouring of water") ... even while DESRING to receive it.  This completely precludes any notion of Baptism of Desire.
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12108
    • Reputation: +7629/-2305
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #3 on: March 10, 2021, 09:29:13 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • But..but..but...St Alphonsus...
    .
    Nice to see quotes from long ago address problems of today.
    Logged

    Offline Tradman

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1355
    • Reputation: +863/-287
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #4 on: March 10, 2021, 10:13:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 10, 2021, 09:09:08 AM
    And the typical confirmation bias of those who promote BoD causes them to ignore this.

    See, unlike the BoD zealouts, the "Feeneyites" acknowledge the existence of contrary indicators or contrary evidence.  We admit that St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine, et al. believed in BoD.  There's no need to keep re-spamming these quotes over and over again.  But, being objective, we ALSO see evidence AGAINST Baptism of Desire, including the 5 or 6 Church Fathers who categorically rejected it (Fathers whom the BoD zealots filter out of the equation).

    So to look at the picture, some were in favor and some were against.  This leaves the overall status of BoD as a controverted matter.  I hold that this decree from Pope St. Siricius demolishes Baptism of Desire, as does the dogmatic definition that there's no salvation outside the "Church of the faithful."
    The OP is undeniable. And this seals the deal. Bod was controverted, period. Nothing about it is was approved or settled and it remains undefinable by it's nature.  Bod is a long endured subversive tactic like the airplane-interview type continual deceptive Bergoglian redefinition of Catholic doctrine.  Apparently discernment is rare these days.  Otherwise respected Novus Ordo Fr J Hardon had the nerve to say, Baptism is the formal way to salvation, bod is the informal.  How long for that garbage to penetrate the already compromised traditional Catholic?   
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46585
    • Reputation: +27432/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #5 on: March 10, 2021, 10:25:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Tradman on March 10, 2021, 10:13:27 AM
    The OP is undeniable. And this seals the deal. Bod was controverted, period. Nothing about it is was approved or settled and it remains undefinable by it's nature.  Bod is a long endured subversive tactic like the airplane-interview type continual deceptive Bergoglian redefinition of Catholic doctrine.  Apparently discernment is rare these days.  Otherwise respected Novus Ordo Fr J Hardon had the nerve to say, Baptism is the formal way to salvation, bod is the informal.  How long for that garbage to penetrate the already compromised traditional Catholic?  

    Right, I regularly hear the NO types on EWTN radio speak of the Sacraments are merely a more certain or better path to justification and salvation, in other words, as being "optional" ... which was condemned by Trent as heretical.  NONE of the modern Novus Ordites (that I've heard) even pay lipservice to the dogma by saying that these people receive the Sacraments in voto.

    Anyone who OBJECTIVELY (i.e. without an agenda) looks at the history of BoD, it is absolutely clear that it was nothing more than speculation.  It was NOT revealed and not part of Apostolic Tradition.

    It's alarming how many Traditional Catholics believe in Rahner's αnσnymσus Christianity ... without even knowing it.  One might say that they are αnσnymσus αnσnymσus Christians.
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46585
    • Reputation: +27432/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #6 on: March 10, 2021, 10:35:39 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 10, 2021, 09:29:13 AM
    But..but..but...St Alphonsus...
    .
    Nice to see quotes from long ago address problems of today.

    Sure, and there are 5 or 6 Church Fathers who can be quoted as explicitly and unequivocally rejecting Baptism of Desire, but the BoD zealots like to claim that this is something that's been believed "always and everywhere" by all Catholics.   Hogwash, or to use a Fr. Cekada expression, "nonsense on stilts."  They'll pretend these quotes don't exist and keep dragging out the same one from St. Augustine .. while also ignoring quotes from the later Augustine.

    I imagine that there will be no comment on this thread by any of the BoD zealots.  They'll simply ignore it, refuse to look at the overall objective picture, and will keep re-spamming the same BoD quotes they have ready in their PC clipboard for any occasion.
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46585
    • Reputation: +27432/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #7 on: March 10, 2021, 10:41:43 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
    • Questions for BoDers (rhetorical since they'll never actually answer);

    1) So, were the 5 or 6 Church Fathers who rejected BoD simply mistaken?

    If they answer yes, then the followup question:  Well, if they were mistaken, how is it not possible that St. Augustine was in fact mistaken, while these were actually right?

    2) Was St. Augustine mistaken in believing that he had been earlier mistaken about BoD?

    3) Was Pope St. Siricius mistaken in maintaining that every one who dies without Baptism is lost, despite desiring it?

    Followup:  Well, how do we know, then, that Pope Innocent II and II weren't mistaken, rather than Pope St. Siricius?
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46585
    • Reputation: +27432/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #8 on: March 10, 2021, 10:44:35 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 10, 2021, 10:41:43 AM
    If they answer yes, then the followup question:  Well, if they were mistaken, how is it not possible that St. Augustine was in fact mistaken, while these were actually right?

    Answer:  St. Augustine was not mistaken because later Popes talked about BoD.

    Rebuttal:  Well, that's interesting, since those Popes based their opinion on the "authority" of St. Augustine.  So St. Augustine was right because of the authority of Popes who based their opinion on the authority of St. Augustine.  That is CIRCULAR authority.

    You'll notice that all of BoD theory rests upon a self-contained "authority" cycle, where all roads lead back to St. Augustine.  But then St. Augustine rejected BoD ... which completely wrecks the entire house of cards.
    Logged

    Offline Tradman

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1355
    • Reputation: +863/-287
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #9 on: March 10, 2021, 10:46:04 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 10, 2021, 10:25:58 AM
    Right, I regularly hear the NO types on EWTN radio speak of the Sacraments are merely a more certain or better path to justification and salvation, in other words, as being "optional" ... which was condemned by Trent as heretical.  NONE of the modern Novus Ordites (that I've heard) even pay lipservice to the dogma by saying that these people receive the Sacraments in voto.

    Anyone who OBJECTIVELY (i.e. without an agenda) looks at the history of BoD, it is absolutely clear that it was nothing more than speculation.  It was NOT revealed and not part of Apostolic Tradition.

    It's alarming how many Traditional Catholics believe in Rahner's αnσnymσus Christianity ... without even knowing it.  One might say that they are αnσnymσus αnσnymσus Christians.
    Watching bod develop has been aggravating. The progression of what was once perhaps innocently considered, to what is now accepted is a clue that this has always been an attack on the sacraments and on baptism specifically.  Either that, or the devil forgot to bother.      
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46585
    • Reputation: +27432/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #10 on: March 10, 2021, 12:23:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Tradman on March 10, 2021, 10:46:04 AM
    Watching bod develop has been aggravating. The progression of what was once perhaps innocently considered, to what is now accepted is a clue that this has always been an attack on the sacraments and on baptism specifically.  Either that, or the devil forgot to bother.      

    Well, it's interesting in that you can see it develop even in St. Augustine.  He realized, unfortunately too late, that BoD, even in its "innocent" form, leads to Pelagianism.  And that is EXACTLY what we have today.  Pelagius has prevailed in most of the modern world.

    https://catholicism.org/pelagius-lives.html
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46585
    • Reputation: +27432/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #11 on: March 10, 2021, 12:28:22 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Pelagians were making the same objection that Fr. Cekada did, to which St Jerome responds (the same way that we Feeneyites respond to Fr Cekada):

    Quote
    It is true that neither fertile Britain, nor the people of Scotland, nor any of the barbar­ian nations as far as the ocean knew anything about Moses and His prophets. Why was it necessary that He come at the end of those times when numerous multitudes of people had already perished? Writing to the Romans, the blessed Apostle cautiously airs this question but he cannot answer it and leaves it to God’s knowl­edge. So, you should also deign to accept that there may be no answer to what you ask. To God be the power and He does not need you as His advocate.
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46585
    • Reputation: +27432/-5069
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #12 on: March 10, 2021, 12:39:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • St. Jerome wrote this of the Pelagians in his day:

    Quote
    For while they make vain statements claiming one thing, it has been proved that they have quite another thing in their hearts.

    So we have people who make empty (vain) statements saying that they believe in EENS, but it comes out that they really don't (in their hearts).
    Logged

    Offline Struthio

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1650
    • Reputation: +454/-366
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #13 on: March 10, 2021, 01:03:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 10, 2021, 09:03:48 AM
    Unlike those two letters from the Innocents, this was was presented as authoritative papal teaching, addressed to the entire Church, finishing with the statement that what he decreed should be observed by all those who  qui nolunt ab apostolicae petrae, super quam Christus universalem construxit Ecclesiam, soliditate divelli "who do not wish to be severed from the solidity of the Apostolic Rock upon which Christ founded the universal Church."

    Then why did you say the following yesterday?

    Quote from: Ladislaus on March 09, 2021, 06:18:07 AM
    They [the Dimonds] are in fact not wrong in accusing MOST of them of heresy. Where they go wrong is in accusing people of heresy simply for believing in BoD even when they explain it in a Catholic sense.

    Following Pope St. Siricius, BoD is heresy. Consequently those who believe, teach, or preach BoD are heretics, and the Dimonds are right (in accusing ... ).

    Logged

    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2326
    • Reputation: +876/-146
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #14 on: March 10, 2021, 02:15:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 10, 2021, 12:28:22 PM
    Pelagians were making the same objection that Fr. Cekada did, to which St Jerome responds (the same way that we Feeneyites respond to Fr Cekada):


    Quote
    It is true that neither fertile Britain, nor the people of Scotland, nor any of the barbar­ian nations as far as the ocean knew anything about Moses and His prophets. Why was it necessary that He come at the end of those times when numerous multitudes of people had already perished? Writing to the Romans, the blessed Apostle cautiously airs this question but he cannot answer it and leaves it to God’s knowl­edge. So, you should also deign to accept that there may be no answer to what you ask. To God be the power and He does not need you as His advocate.


    That's strong and authoritative: "He does not need you as His advocate." I like that. 

    Do you have a source for that quote?
    Logged
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.
    Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7
    « previous next »