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Author Topic: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire  (Read 8968 times)

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #80 on: March 14, 2021, 11:56:59 AM »
As addressed, oh, about 50 times now,
Don't waste your time with this RomanTheo, for what is the point of debating about St. Thomas's  teachings with someone who rejects St. Thomas and all the saints by believing the Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus etc. can be saved? They quote St. Thomas, while at the same time throwing him under the bus.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #81 on: March 14, 2021, 12:00:16 PM »
St. Augustine: "Of the Death Which the Unbaptized Suffer for the Confession of Christ:  For whatever unbaptized persons die confessing Christ, this confession is of the same efficacy for the remission of sins as if they were washed in the sacred font of baptism. For He who said, 'Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God,'(John 3:5) made also an exception in their favor, in that other sentence where He no less absolutely said, 'Whosoever shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven' (Matthew 10:32) and in another place, 'Whosoever will lose his life for my sake, shall find it.' Matthew 16:25)." (City of God, I, XIII).

St. Augustine:  “I find that not only martyrdom for the sake of Christ may supply for what is wanting in baptism, but also faith and conversion of heart, if recourse may not be had to the celebration of the mystery for want of time. … But the want is supplied invisibly only when the administration of baptism is prevented, not by contempt for religion, but by the necessity of the moment. (On Baptism, Against the Donatists,  IV)

First quote is a reference to Baptism of Blood, which we have discussed before.  Not only that, but it's inaccurate in that it's merely about the "confession" and makes no mention of martyrdom itself.  Someone can die confessing the faith without actually being martyred.  St. Alphonsus later claimed that BoB worked quasi-ex-opere-operato, whereas here there's no mention of that mechanism but, rather, an ex opere operantis phenomenon.

For the second quote, I love how you snip out the first part, where he says, "Going back and forth on this, I find that ..."  It's left out because it demonstrates that this is speculation on his part rather than some kind of authoritative teaching.

Overall, I love how you guys selectively quote the ambiguous oration by St. Ambrose and the early speculation of St. Augustine, but then CONSTANTLY and DELIBERATELY LEAVE OUT all the other Patristic quotes about BoD, in particular, from the FIVE OR SIX Church Fathers who EXPLICITLY REJECTED the notion.

You pretend that they don't exist and simply filter them out of the equation, and that shows extreme intellectual dishonesty.  You try to demonstrate the unanimous consensus of the Fathers simply by ignoring the ones who rejected it.

Not only that, but you refuse to cite later (post-Pelagian-controversy) St. Augustine, where he completely rejects BoD and made some of the strongest anti-BoD statements in existence.

This puts your dishonesty on display for all to see.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #82 on: March 14, 2021, 12:01:15 PM »
Don't waste your time with this RomanTheo, for what is the point of debating about St. Thomas's  teachings with someone who rejects St. Thomas and all the saints by believing the Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus etc. can be saved? They quote St. Thomas, while at the same time throwing him under the bus.

I'm not interested in RomanTheo.  I'm only responding to expose his falsehoods to other people who might read this thread.

I think I'm going to compile a list of the anti-BoD references from the Church Fathers and popes, write these up, and then be ready to spam them right back at the BoD spammers.  They respam the same 3 or 4 quotes every single time and ignore any of the CONTRARY evidence, exposing their intellectual dishonesty.  It's sad when a Karl Rahner has more integrity than these Traditional Catholics.

Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #83 on: March 14, 2021, 12:22:12 PM »
(RomanTheo) Do you believe in BoD for Catechumens only?  If so, then I'm not interested in debating that subject.
Good luck with getting a straight answer to your question from this RomanTheo. He is likely another spammer sitting one seat over from XavierSem. 

Here is my 4th try:

What flavor of BOD are you promoting here? Define your BOD in the fewest words possible (it) . Be the first BODer to ever do it on CI or anywhere else I've been to in 25+ years.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #84 on: March 14, 2021, 12:24:29 PM »
None of the quotes I posted are contrary to any dogma.  What they are contrary to, is your erroneous private interpretation of dogma.
Same tired old false accusation, I am simply reading and understanding what it says, not interpreting anything - and since they do not contradict dogma, then post dogma.