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Author Topic: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire  (Read 8974 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #75 on: March 14, 2021, 11:40:19 AM »
Canon 737, 1917 Code: “Baptism, the door and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire necessary unto salvation for all, is not validly conferred except through the ablution of true and natural water with the prescribed form of words.”

Canon 1239, 1917 Code: “Those who have died without baptism are not to be given ecclesiastical burial. Catechumens who die without baptism through no fault of their own are to be counted among the baptized.”

As I've said before, the Church has left open and allowed the opinion that BoD is possible for Catechumens.  You'll note that 1239 addresses only Catechumens (just like your earlier quote from Pius XII).

You left out the first part of Canon 1239, as most BoDers do.  That first part says that only the baptized may receive Christian burial.  This next sections you cite here says, in the context of allowing Christian burial, Catechumens are to be counted among the baptized.  In other words, all this is saying is that Catechumens may receive Christian burial.  Catechumens are not IN FACT baptized, as every acknowledges, but they are to be considered baptized for the purposes of the rule that only the baptized may receive Christian burial.

Prior Church discipline was to refuse Catechumens Christian burial.  Christian burial is no guarantee of salvation.

Do you believe in BoD for Catechumens only?  If so, then I'm not interested in debating that subject.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #76 on: March 14, 2021, 11:42:49 AM »
The Sacrament St. Thomas was referring to is the Eucharist, not baptism.
What did he teach that was controversial about the Eucharist that did not also apply to a BOD?  He admitted he could be wrong, no such admission is offered by the Church pertaining to defined dogmas.

Why insist on posting the contradictory-to-dogma opinions of the lesser authority of St. Thomas and other great saints?

Do you believe them to have authority over defined dogma?
 


Offline Stubborn

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #77 on: March 14, 2021, 11:46:43 AM »
Complaining about the multiplicity of copy and paste to prove the Church teaches BOD/BOB is because it IS WHAT IT IS.  The deniers of said teachings have NOTHING to copy paste their erroneous position with.  

Stubborn for examples murmurs about the readings in the Catholic books illustrating the truth of the doctrine forgetting they are stamped with the Nihil Obstat - Imprimatur
So what! There are a million books full of heresy stamped with the Nihil Obstat - Imprimatur. Why not quote only defined dogma? Because it has no stamp of Nihil Obstat - Imprimatur? :facepalm:

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #78 on: March 14, 2021, 11:50:18 AM »
St. Ambrose: “But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism. Tell me: What else is in your power other than the desire, the request? But he even had this desire for a long time, that, when he should come into Italy, he would be initiated, and recently he signified a desire to be baptized by me, and for this reason above all others he thought that I ought to be summoned. Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested? And because he asked, he received, and therefore is it said: 'By whatsover death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest.’ (Wisdom 4:7).”

As addressed, oh, about 50 times now, this is totally ambiguous.  But let's go through it again.

This could just as easily be a reference to a Baptism of Blood, since Valentinian was murdered precisely because he had rejected Arianism.

Also, it could reflect a possible hope that someone near Valentinian baptized him as he lay dying.  Back before the days of the internet, the details were probably sketchy in terms of what actually transpired.

Finally, it could just be a generic statement that he received what he sought, implying that if he didn't receive it, it was because he didn't REALLY seek it.

Elsewhere, St. Ambrose rejected the notion of the possibility of salvation for even virtuous Catechumens if they do not receive the Sacrament.

Finally, when St. Augustine was speculating about BoD, he cited no authorities, other than St. Cyprian's belief in BoB ... and then extended it.  If St. Ambrose had believed in it, surely Augustine would have cited it.

In terms of Baptism of Blood, there's evidence that the (handful of) Fathers who believed in it considered it to actually be the Sacrament of Baptism administered in an alternate mode, with the blood being the matter, and the angels pronouncing the words.  St. Cyprian called BoB a Sacrament.  There's an ecclesiastical manual that for the longest time had been attributed to St. Augustine, and was certainly written by someone in his circle, which says that the only alternative to the Sacrament is in fact BoB, since "all the sacred elements" (aka matter and form) were present.  St. Cyprian described martyrdom as having the martyr washed in his own blood while the angels pronounced the words.

Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #79 on: March 14, 2021, 11:56:49 AM »
What did he teach that was controversial about the Eucharist that did not also apply to a BOD?  He admitted he could be wrong, no such admission is offered by the Church pertaining to defined dogmas.

Why insist on posting the contradictory-to-dogma opinions of the lesser authority of St. Thomas and other great saints?

Do you believe them to have authority over defined dogma?
 
None of the quotes I posted are contrary to any dogma.  What they are contrary to, is your erroneous private interpretation of dogma.