Author Topic: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire (Read 6621 times)

MyrnaM · « **Reply #60 on:** March 13, 2021, 02:24:38 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn on March 13, 2021, 12:20:43 PM

It is worth reminding that a doctrine is a truth or belief that all of the faithful within the Church has believed always and everywhere. That is what a doctrine is.

Yes Stubborn and Baptism of Desire and OR Blood is just that! From the beginning of the birth of the Church it was taught in every catechism book that mentions it.
Can you show us one catechism book that denies BOD/BOB?

Stubborn · « **Reply #61 on:** March 13, 2021, 02:50:35 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont on March 13, 2021, 12:27:36 PM

Look Stubborn, I'm not getting into a R&R vs Sede argument with you.

My only point is that Xavier uses the "not infallible" card to explain any potential papal error on faith and morals. Just because something is "not infallible" doesn't mean it gets a pass...which is what Xavier was trying to do here with Pope Siricius' comments.

Of course, I don't agree that it's clear that Pope Siricius made an error.

The point being what the good pope taught as regards the sacrament is/was already believed by all of the faithful since the time of the Apostles. That truth is a doctrine of the Church, it was defined infallibly at Trent - which means it is a defined dogma. So while the pope was not defining this doctrine ex cathedra, he was speaking, literally, the Gospel the truth.

Since that truth is a truth he cannot wholly accept because it conflicts with a BOD, he superfluously plays the "not infallible" card.

Stubborn · « **Reply #62 on:** March 13, 2021, 02:57:40 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM on March 13, 2021, 02:24:38 PM

Yes Stubborn and Baptism of Desire and OR Blood is just that! From the beginning of the birth of the Church it was taught in every catechism book that mentions it.
Can you show us one catechism book that denies BOD/BOB?

I do not disagree it's taught in text books (catechisms), but in the Church's very early infancy, St. Paul said there is only one baptism, the text books say there are three.

Why on earth do you believe catechisms (text books), when you know that St. Paul said in no uncertain terms that there is only one baptism? Knowing that Christ said no sacrament, no salvation? Knowing that Trent said no one can even be justified without the sacrament or the desire thereof? These are the authority we are bound to, the catechisms are text books written by fallible men and do contain errors, a BOD/BOB is one of those errors.

RomanTheo · « **Reply #63 on:** March 13, 2021, 04:48:43 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn on March 13, 2021, 02:57:40 PM

I do not disagree it's taught in text books (catechisms), but in the Church's very early infancy, St. Paul said there is only one baptism, the text books say there are three.

Why on earth do you believe catechisms (text books), when you know that St. Paul said in no uncertain terms that there is only one baptism?

St. Thomas, Summa:

Article 11. Whether three kinds of Baptism are fittingly described—viz. Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit?

Objection 1. It seems that the three kinds of Baptism are not fittingly described as Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit, i.e. of the Holy Ghost. Because the Apostle says (Ephesians 4:5): "One Faith, one Baptism." Now there is but one Faith. Therefore there should not be three Baptisms.

Objection 2. Further, Baptism is a sacrament, as we have made clear above (III:65:1). Now none but Baptism of Water is a sacrament. Therefore we should not reckon two other Baptisms.

Objection 3. Further, Damascene (De Fide Orth. iv) distinguishes several other kinds of Baptism. Therefore we should admit more than three Baptisms.

On the contrary, on Hebrews 6:2, "Of the doctrine of Baptisms," the gloss says: "He uses the plural, because there is Baptism of Water, of Repentance, and of Blood."

I answer that, As stated above (III:62:5), Baptism of Water has its efficacy from Christ's Passion, to which a man is conformed by Baptism, and also from the Holy Ghost, as first cause. Now although the effect depends on the first cause, the cause far surpasses the effect, nor does it depend on it. Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence it is written (Apocalypse 7:14): "These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb." In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this it is written (Isaiah 4:4): "If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): "The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: 'Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise' that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable."

Reply to Objection 1. The other two Baptisms are included in the Baptism of Water, which derives its efficacy, both from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost. Consequently for this reason the unity of Baptism is not destroyed.

Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (III:60:1), a sacrament is a kind of sign. The other two, however, are like the Baptism of Water, not, indeed, in the nature of sign, but in the baptismal effect. Consequently they are not sacraments.

Reply to Objection 3. Damascene enumerates certain figurative Baptisms. For instance, "the Deluge" was a figure of our Baptism, in respect of the salvation of the faithful in the Church; since then "a few . . . souls were saved in the ark [Vulgate: 'by water'," according to 1 Peter 3:20. He also mentions "the crossing of the Red Sea": which was a figure of our Baptism, in respect of our delivery from the bondage of sin; hence the Apostle says (1 Corinthians 10:2) that "all . . . were baptized in the cloud and in the sea." And again he mentions "the various washings which were customary under the Old Law," which were figures of our Baptism, as to the cleansing from sins: also "the Baptism of John," which prepared the way for our Baptism.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #64 on:** March 13, 2021, 06:38:18 PM »

Quote from: RomanTheo on March 13, 2021, 04:48:43 PM

St. Thomas, Summa:

Article 11. Whether three kinds of Baptism are fittingly described—viz. Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit?

......

St. Thomas Aquinas and all the church Fathers were not alive when all the dogmas on EENS were pronounced. The BODers will say that St. Thomas is greater than St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, St. John Chrysostom, all of which contradict St. Thomas on the possible salvationj of a catechumen who dies "by accident". Then when a strict EENSer brings up the point that St. Thomas was opposed to the idea of salvation for non-Catholics, Muslim, Jҽωs, Hindus etc, the BODers throw St. Thomas under the bus and start quoting any nobody they can find.

It is always the same material copy and pasted over and over by BODers that have never talked to anyone but another BODer. All the dogmas, the hurdles, that they have to clear, are endless, but they are too hard headed to see the truth. They can't even clear the first hurdles of the catechumen, who does not belong to the Church, and can't get to heaven without the baptismal indelible character, but that does not stop them from believing that a Jew who has no desire to be a Catholic or baptized can be saved.

RomanTheo · « **Reply #65 on:** March 14, 2021, 12:28:04 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on March 13, 2021, 06:38:18 PM

St. Thomas Aquinas and all the church Fathers were not alive when all the dogmas on EENS were pronounced. The BODers will say that St. Thomas is greater than St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, St. John Chrysostom, all of which contradict St. Thomas on the possible salvationj of a catechumen who dies "by accident".

St. Ambrose: “But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism. Tell me: What else is in your power other than the desire, the request? But he even had this desire for a long time, that, when he should come into Italy, he would be initiated, and recently he signified a desire to be baptized by me, and for this reason above all others he thought that I ought to be summoned. Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested? And because he asked, he received, and therefore is it said: 'By whatsover death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest.’ (Wisdom 4:7).”

St. Augustine: "Of the Death Which the Unbaptized Suffer for the Confession of Christ: For whatever unbaptized persons die confessing Christ, this confession is of the same efficacy for the remission of sins as if they were washed in the sacred font of baptism. For He who said, 'Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God,'(John 3:5) made also an exception in their favor, in that other sentence where He no less absolutely said, 'Whosoever shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven' (Matthew 10:32) and in another place, 'Whosoever will lose his life for my sake, shall find it.' Matthew 16:25)." (City of God, I, XIII).

St. Augustine: “I find that not only martyrdom for the sake of Christ may supply for what is wanting in baptism, but also faith and conversion of heart, if recourse may not be had to the celebration of the mystery for want of time. … But the want is supplied invisibly only when the administration of baptism is prevented, not by contempt for religion, but by the necessity of the moment. (On Baptism, Against the Donatists, IV)

Bellarmine: “But without doubt it must be believed that true conversion supplies for Baptism of water when one dies without Baptism of water, not out of contempt, but out of necessity. For it is expressly said in Ezechiel: ‘If the wicked shall do penance from his sins, I will no more remember his iniquities.’ The same is taught by St. Ambrose, in the speech following the death of Valentinian: ‘I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace for which he prayed.’ St Augustine teaches the same in his book On Baptism (IV, XXII). … Thus also the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, says that Baptism is necessary in fact or in desire." (Bellarmine, De Controversiis, “De Baptismo,” I, VI).

Canon 737, 1917 Code: “Baptism, the door and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire necessary unto salvation for all, is not validly conferred except through the ablution of true and natural water with the prescribed form of words.”

Canon 1239, 1917 Code: “Those who have died without baptism are not to be given ecclesiastical burial. Catechumens who die without baptism through no fault of their own are to be counted among the baptized.”

Ladislaus · « **Reply #66 on:** March 14, 2021, 07:28:17 AM »

Sigh. Another BoD spammer where we have to refute every single quote for the 50th time.

St. Thomas was simply wrong. St. Ambrose’s statement is ambiguous and his quote can be understood three different ways, and elsewhere he rejects the possibility of even virtuous catechumens who die without Baptism. Code of Canon Law is merely saying that Catechumens can receive burial ... which I have proven before and will demonstrate again.

Stubborn · « **Reply #67 on:** March 14, 2021, 09:46:56 AM »

Quote from: RomanTheo on March 13, 2021, 04:48:43 PM

St. Thomas, Summa:

Article 11. Whether three kinds of Baptism are fittingly described—viz. Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit?

Objection 1. It seems that the three kinds of Baptism are not fittingly described as Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit, i.e. of the Holy Ghost. Because the Apostle says (Ephesians 4:5): "One Faith, one Baptism." Now there is but one Faith. Therefore there should not be three Baptisms.

Objection 2. Further, Baptism is a sacrament, as we have made clear above (III:65:1). Now none but Baptism of Water is a sacrament. Therefore we should not reckon two other Baptisms.

Objection 3. Further, Damascene (De Fide Orth. iv) distinguishes several other kinds of Baptism. Therefore we should admit more than three Baptisms.

On the contrary, on Hebrews 6:2, "Of the doctrine of Baptisms," the gloss says: "He uses the plural, because there is Baptism of Water, of Repentance, and of Blood."

I answer that, As stated above (III:62:5), Baptism of Water has its efficacy from Christ's Passion, to which a man is conformed by Baptism, and also from the Holy Ghost, as first cause. Now although the effect depends on the first cause, the cause far surpasses the effect, nor does it depend on it. Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence it is written (Apocalypse 7:14): "These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb." In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this it is written (Isaiah 4:4): "If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): "The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: 'Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise' that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable."

Reply to Objection 1. The other two Baptisms are included in the Baptism of Water, which derives its efficacy, both from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost. Consequently for this reason the unity of Baptism is not destroyed.

Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (III:60:1), a sacrament is a kind of sign. The other two, however, are like the Baptism of Water, not, indeed, in the nature of sign, but in the baptismal effect. Consequently they are not sacraments.

Reply to Objection 3. Damascene enumerates certain figurative Baptisms. For instance, "the Deluge" was a figure of our Baptism, in respect of the salvation of the faithful in the Church; since then "a few . . . souls were saved in the ark [Vulgate: 'by water'," according to 1 Peter 3:20. He also mentions "the crossing of the Red Sea": which was a figure of our Baptism, in respect of our delivery from the bondage of sin; hence the Apostle says (1 Corinthians 10:2) that "all . . . were baptized in the cloud and in the sea." And again he mentions "the various washings which were customary under the Old Law," which were figures of our Baptism, as to the cleansing from sins: also "the Baptism of John," which prepared the way for our Baptism.

St. Thomas himself expressed he was unsure his opinion was the correct opinion and that he might in fact be wrong....

"I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." - Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #68 on:** March 14, 2021, 10:06:01 AM »

Quote from: RomanTheo on March 14, 2021, 12:28:04 AM

St. Ambrose: “But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism. T....

What flavor of BOD are you promoting here? Define your BOD in the fewest words possible (it) . Be the first BODer to ever do it on CI or anywhere else I've been to in 25+ years.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #69 on:** March 14, 2021, 10:11:10 AM »

Complaining about the multiplicity of copy and paste to prove the Church teaches BOD/BOB is because it IS WHAT IT IS. The deniers of said teachings have NOTHING to copy paste their erroneous position with.

Stubborn for examples murmurs about the readings in the Catholic books illustrating the truth of the doctrine forgetting they are stamped with the Nihil Obstat - Imprimatur

Speaking now of Baptism of Desire as taught by the Church NOT all the other nonsense that some here try to add such as claiming we believe in BOD takes the place of water Baptism IF the recipient continues to live, which is not true. BOD only applies through the Mercy of God when perfect love for God is within the soul at the moment of its last breath. AND ONLY God and He alone determines that.

If it bothers to see the copy & paste here over and over, then either stop exaggerating the doctrine and accept it!

You are calling the kettle black when it is said, we who believe in BOD get our thoughts from other BODers. We get our insight from reading the teachings, it is you who gather together and copy false words from each other, since you have no proof.

I have no idea where you all come up with the idea that since we believe in BOD, we also must believe in those outside the CHURCH are saved.

Better be careful since it seems you want to take God's place by continuing to say who is saved, and who is not saved. Denying the Mercy of God may come back to you when you need it.

My last remark will now be twisted by some here, saying that because I even hinted "who is saved/who is not saved" therefore I deny EENS; twisting words as the method of operation is from those DimondBros; Your Master of information!

Sure God could keep people alive until they receive water Baptism, but He lets persecution, murder, accidents happen because of an example to us, to increase our faith in His Mercy and the mystery of Our Faith.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #70 on:** March 14, 2021, 10:49:53 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM on March 14, 2021, 10:11:10 AM

Complaining about the multiplicity of copy and paste to prove the Church teaches BOD/BOB is because it IS WHAT IT IS. The deniers of said teachings have NOTHING to copy paste their erroneous position with.

What flavor of BOD are you promoting here? Define your BOD in the fewest words possible (it) . Be the first BODer to ever do it on CI or anywhere else I've been to in 25+ years.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #71 on:** March 14, 2021, 11:06:14 AM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on March 14, 2021, 10:49:53 AM

What flavor of BOD are you promoting here? Define your BOD in the fewest words possible (it) . Be the first BODer to ever do it on CI or anywhere else I've been to in 25+ years.

BOD IS DEFINED as the Mercy of God to those who have not yet been blessed with THE SACRAMENT, through no fault of their own. God allowed them to be taken from this world knowing they would, because of their perfect love and desire to be united to the Mystical Body of Christ, WILL BE. Amen

RomanTheo · « **Reply #72 on:** March 14, 2021, 11:18:18 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn on March 14, 2021, 09:46:56 AM

St. Thomas himself expressed he was unsure his opinion was the correct opinion and that he might in fact be wrong....

"I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." - Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

The Sacrament St. Thomas was referring to is the Eucharist, not baptism.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #73 on:** March 14, 2021, 11:25:43 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM on March 14, 2021, 11:06:14 AM

BOD IS DEFINED as the Mercy of God to those who have not yet been blessed with THE SACRAMENT, through no fault of their own. God allowed them to be taken from this world knowing they would, because of their perfect love and desire to be united to the Mystical Body of Christ, WILL BE. Amen

I asked you what YOU believe and that is what you wrote, for that I commend you, however, your adding "BOD IS DEFINED", is nothing but a gratuitous remark, for what you wrote is just what you believe.

In short, you are an implicit faith'er, you believe that Jҽωs, Muslims, Hindus Buddhists etc., indeed people in any religion, can be saved, even if they do not believe in the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation, nor want to be baptized, nor want nothing to do with the Catholic Church and her sacraments.

No Father, Doctor, saint taught what you believe, as a matter of fact, they all unanimously reject your belief.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #74 on:** March 14, 2021, 11:27:37 AM »

Quote from: RomanTheo on March 14, 2021, 11:18:18 AM

The Sacrament St. Thomas was referring to is the Eucharist, not baptism.

What flavor of BOD are you promoting here? Define your BOD in the fewest words possible (it) . Be the first BODer to ever do it on CI or anywhere else I've been to in 25+ years.

Author Topic: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire (Read 6621 times)

MyrnaM

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