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Author Topic: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire  (Read 8993 times)

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Offline MyrnaM

Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2021, 02:24:38 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on March 13, 2021, 12:20:43 PM


It is worth reminding that a doctrine is a truth or belief  that all of the faithful within the Church has believed always and everywhere. That is what a doctrine is.


Yes Stubborn and Baptism of Desire and OR Blood is just that!  From the beginning of the birth of the Church it was taught in every catechism book that mentions it. 
Can you show us one catechism book that denies BOD/BOB?    
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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2021, 02:50:35 PM »
Quote from: 2Vermont on March 13, 2021, 12:27:36 PM
Look Stubborn, I'm not getting into a R&R vs Sede argument with you.
 
My only point is that Xavier uses the "not infallible" card to explain any potential papal error on faith and morals.  Just because something is "not infallible" doesn't mean it gets a pass...which is what Xavier was trying to do here with Pope Siricius' comments.

Of course, I don't agree that it's clear that Pope Siricius made an error.  
The point being what the good pope taught as regards the sacrament is/was already believed by all of the faithful since the time of the Apostles. That truth is a doctrine of the Church, it was defined infallibly at Trent - which means it is a defined dogma. So while the pope was not defining this doctrine ex cathedra, he was speaking, literally, the Gospel the truth. 

Since that truth is a truth he cannot wholly accept because it conflicts with a BOD, he superfluously plays the "not infallible" card.
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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2021, 02:57:40 PM »
Quote from: MyrnaM on March 13, 2021, 02:24:38 PM
Yes Stubborn and Baptism of Desire and OR Blood is just that!  From the beginning of the birth of the Church it was taught in every catechism book that mentions it.
Can you show us one catechism book that denies BOD/BOB?
I do not disagree it's taught in text books (catechisms), but in the Church's very early infancy, St. Paul said there is only one baptism, the text books say there are three.

Why on earth do you believe catechisms (text books), when you know that St. Paul said in no uncertain terms that there is only one baptism? Knowing that Christ said no sacrament, no salvation? Knowing that Trent said no one can even be justified without the sacrament or the desire thereof? These are the authority we are bound to, the catechisms are text books written by fallible men and do contain errors, a BOD/BOB is one of those errors.
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Offline RomanTheo

Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2021, 04:48:43 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on March 13, 2021, 02:57:40 PM
I do not disagree it's taught in text books (catechisms), but in the Church's very early infancy, St. Paul said there is only one baptism, the text books say there are three.  

Why on earth do you believe catechisms (text books), when you know that St. Paul said in no uncertain terms that there is only one baptism?

St. Thomas, Summa:

Article 11. Whether three kinds of Baptism are fittingly described—viz. Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit?

Objection 1. It seems that the three kinds of Baptism are not fittingly described as Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit, i.e. of the Holy Ghost. Because the Apostle says (Ephesians 4:5): "One Faith, one Baptism." Now there is but one Faith. Therefore there should not be three Baptisms.

Objection 2. Further, Baptism is a sacrament, as we have made clear above (III:65:1). Now none but Baptism of Water is a sacrament. Therefore we should not reckon two other Baptisms.

Objection 3. Further, Damascene (De Fide Orth. iv) distinguishes several other kinds of Baptism. Therefore we should admit more than three Baptisms.

On the contrary, on Hebrews 6:2, "Of the doctrine of Baptisms," the gloss says: "He uses the plural, because there is Baptism of Water, of Repentance, and of Blood."

I answer that, As stated above (III:62:5), Baptism of Water has its efficacy from Christ's Passion, to which a man is conformed by Baptism, and also from the Holy Ghost, as first cause. Now although the effect depends on the first cause, the cause far surpasses the effect, nor does it depend on it. Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence it is written (Apocalypse 7:14): "These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb." In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this it is written (Isaiah 4:4): "If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): "The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: 'Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise' that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable."

Reply to Objection 1. The other two Baptisms are included in the Baptism of Water, which derives its efficacy, both from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost. Consequently for this reason the unity of Baptism is not destroyed.

Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (III:60:1), a sacrament is a kind of sign. The other two, however, are like the Baptism of Water, not, indeed, in the nature of sign, but in the baptismal effect. Consequently they are not sacraments.

Reply to Objection 3. Damascene enumerates certain figurative Baptisms. For instance, "the Deluge" was a figure of our Baptism, in respect of the salvation of the faithful in the Church; since then "a few . . . souls were saved in the ark [Vulgate: 'by water'," according to 1 Peter 3:20. He also mentions "the crossing of the Red Sea": which was a figure of our Baptism, in respect of our delivery from the bondage of sin; hence the Apostle says (1 Corinthians 10:2) that "all . . . were baptized in the cloud and in the sea." And again he mentions "the various washings which were customary under the Old Law," which were figures of our Baptism, as to the cleansing from sins: also "the Baptism of John," which prepared the way for our Baptism.
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2021, 06:38:18 PM »
Quote from: RomanTheo on March 13, 2021, 04:48:43 PM
St. Thomas, Summa:

Article 11. Whether three kinds of Baptism are fittingly described—viz. Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit?

......
St. Thomas Aquinas and all the church Fathers were not alive when all the dogmas on EENS were pronounced. The BODers will say that St. Thomas is greater than St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, St. John Chrysostom, all of which contradict St. Thomas on the possible salvationj of a catechumen who dies "by accident".   Then when  a strict EENSer brings up the point that St. Thomas was opposed to the idea of  salvation for non-Catholics, Muslim, Jҽωs, Hindus etc,  the BODers throw St. Thomas under the bus and start quoting any nobody they can find.

It is always the same material copy and pasted over and over by BODers that have never talked to anyone but another BODer. All the dogmas, the hurdles, that they have to clear, are endless, but they are too hard headed to see the truth. They can't even clear the first hurdles of the catechumen, who does not belong to the Church, and can't get to heaven without the baptismal indelible character, but that does not stop them from believing that a Jew who has no desire to be a Catholic or baptized can be saved.


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