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Author Topic: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire  (Read 9011 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2021, 12:20:43 PM »
But many R&Rs do decide whether what Francis says is infallible or not...just as Xavier did with Siricius.
By now we all should know the pope is only infallible when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. So there really is nothing for R&R to decide as far as Francis' infallibility is concerned because he has never defined a doctrine ex cathedra.

It is worth reminding that a doctrine is a truth or belief  that all of the faithful within the Church has believed always and everywhere. That is what a doctrine is.

A dogma is nothing more than a doctrine, defined ex cathedra. Any and all new doctrines, like all those of V2, will never be defined ex cathedra because they are new doctrines and were never believed by all the faithful all of the time.

This is the decree of V1, it states when the pope, and only the pope is infallible, only when he speaks ex cathedra, that is "when he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church" This is when doctrine becomes defined dogma, and this is the absolute extent of the popes' infallibility per V1.

Some theologians of the last few centuries opined V1's dogma on papal infallibility was greatly lacking, so they took it upon themselves to reward popes with additional infallibilities. Most of the faithful people accept these "add ons" or additional infallibilities as if they are de fide teachings of the Church, which helps explain why we are in this crisis. And those who believe them to be authentic teachings of the Church generally fall into one of three categories or some combination of them....1) Confused, 2) Novus Ordo 3) Sedevacantist.



Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2021, 12:23:57 PM »
Let's take the sede vs. R&R debate elsewhere please.


Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2021, 12:27:36 PM »
By now we all should know the pope is only infallible when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. So there really is nothing for R&R to decide as far as Francis' infallibility is concerned because he has never defined a doctrine ex cathedra.

It is worth reminding that a doctrine is a truth or belief  that all of the faithful within the Church has believed always and everywhere. That is what a doctrine is.

A dogma is nothing more than a doctrine, defined ex cathedra. Any and all new doctrines, like all those of V2, will never be defined ex cathedra because they are new doctrines and were never believed by all the faithful all of the time.

This is the decree of V1, it states when the pope, and only the pope is infallible, only when he speaks ex cathedra, that is "when he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church" This is when doctrine becomes defined dogma, and this is the absolute extent of the popes' infallibility per V1.

Some theologians of the last few centuries opined V1's dogma on papal infallibility was greatly lacking, so they took it upon themselves to reward popes with additional infallibilities. Most of the faithful people accept these "add ons" or additional infallibilities as if they are de fide teachings of the Church, which helps explain why we are in this crisis. And those who believe them to be authentic teachings of the Church generally fall into one of three categories or some combination of them....1) Confused, 2) Novus Ordo 3) Sedevacantist.
Look Stubborn, I'm not getting into a R&R vs Sede argument with you. 
 
My only point is that Xavier uses the "not infallible" card to explain any potential papal error on faith and morals.  Just because something is "not infallible" doesn't mean it gets a pass...which is what Xavier was trying to do here with Pope Siricius' comments.

Of course, I don't agree that it's clear that Pope Siricius made an error.  

Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2021, 12:30:11 PM »
Let's take the sede vs. R&R debate elsewhere please.
No thanks.

Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2021, 02:20:58 PM »
So has anyone seen my question earlier in this thread about applying Pope Siricius' comments to catechumens?  It appears that he believes that catechumens would be lost as well.  And yet I thought that most here, like the poster above, are willing to accept the version of BOD that allows for catechumens.  
The good Pope St. Siriciius in his letter to Himerius is saying, if you are ready to be Baptised, don't delay DON'T DEPEND ON BOD The pope feared Christianity at that time was being outlawed and anyone refusing to worship Roman Gods would be killed.

Pope St. Siricius, Letter to Himerius, 385:

“As we maintain that the observance of the holy Paschal time should in no way be relaxed, in the same way we desire that infants who, on account of their age, cannot yet speak, or those who, in any necessity, are in want of the water of holy baptism, be succored with all possible speed, for fear that, if those who leave this world should be deprived of the life of the Kingdom for having been refused the source of salvation which they desired, this may lead to the ruin of our souls. If those threatened with shipwreck, or the attack of enemies, or the uncertainties of a siege, or those put in a hopeless condition due to some bodily sickness, ask for what in their faith is their only help, let them receive at the very moment of their request the reward of regeneration they beg for. Enough of past mistakes! From now on, let all the priests observe the aforesaid rule if they do not want to be separated from the solid apostolic rock on which Christ has built his universal Church.”