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Author Topic: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire  (Read 8994 times)

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2021, 07:15:11 AM »
Except that Xaiver isn't actually R&R.  He doesn't think there's anything that wrong with V2 or the New Mass.
Yes, that is true.

Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2021, 07:22:06 AM »
Yes, the Pope obviously didn't believe in BoD for catechumens.  In fact, I'm certain he has catechumens in mind as those desiring Baptism when he refers to Easter being the customary time for their Baptism.

I don't believe in BoD for catechumens either, as I believe that God will bring any who are properly disposed the Sacrament itself.

I'm just saying that a BoD for catechumens does not have the massive ecclesiological ramifications of extending it to all manner of heretic, schismatic, and infidel.

I'm just saying that I would not have anything more than a polite disagreement with someone who believed in BoD for catechumens, since that in itself does not absolutely wreck Catholic ecclesiology.

What I get riled up against is the proposition that those who have no connection to the Visible Church can be saved.
So, doesn't that mean that he and St Robert Bellarmine (Doctor) are at odds? How is this squared?


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2021, 07:32:09 AM »
So, doesn't that mean that he and St Robert Bellarmine (Doctor) are at odds? How is this squared?

Well, logically, one of them was wrong.  As is clear from an objective look at the evidence, some were for the notion, some against.  St. Augustine was both for AND against, having floated the idea when he was younger but then rejecting it later.

That's why I say that the status of BoD is that it's a controverted matter among Catholics.  There's no indication whatsoever that it was revealed, and so it may never be resolved.

On another thread, however, I posted that, if I were pope, I would fall short of condemning BoD as heretical but would forbid all discussion of it, since it does no good but lots of harm.  You see, if God does save by BoD, then not believing in it won't change that.  In fact, ironically, if someone ardently believes in BoD, that could actually UNDERMINE their desire to be baptized, making them complacent that they can be saved without Baptism ... as Fr. Feeney famously pointed out.  On the other hand, BoD very quickly leads to religious indifferentism and denial of EENS, and it is the root cause of all the Vatican II evils.

Here's my perspective.  If I die and find out that God saved some people by BoD, then glory to God.  But until then, the only thing I know for sure that He revealed to us is that the Sacrament in re is necessary for salvation, and BoD has a tendency to completely undermine that dogma.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2021, 09:45:33 AM »

Quote
To be fair to Xavier here, isn't this what R&R adherents do all of the time though?
No.  As an example, Stubborn and I would say that none of the 4 examples are infallible.  And we’d be right. 

Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2021, 10:18:04 AM »
No.  As an example, Stubborn and I would say that none of the 4 examples are infallible.  And we’d be right.
But many R&Rs do decide whether what Francis says is infallible or not...just as Xavier did with Siricius.