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Author Topic: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire  (Read 9006 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2021, 10:25:58 AM »
Quote from: Tradman on March 10, 2021, 10:13:27 AM
The OP is undeniable. And this seals the deal. Bod was controverted, period. Nothing about it is was approved or settled and it remains undefinable by it's nature.  Bod is a long endured subversive tactic like the airplane-interview type continual deceptive Bergoglian redefinition of Catholic doctrine.  Apparently discernment is rare these days.  Otherwise respected Novus Ordo Fr J Hardon had the nerve to say, Baptism is the formal way to salvation, bod is the informal.  How long for that garbage to penetrate the already compromised traditional Catholic?  

Right, I regularly hear the NO types on EWTN radio speak of the Sacraments are merely a more certain or better path to justification and salvation, in other words, as being "optional" ... which was condemned by Trent as heretical.  NONE of the modern Novus Ordites (that I've heard) even pay lipservice to the dogma by saying that these people receive the Sacraments in voto.

Anyone who OBJECTIVELY (i.e. without an agenda) looks at the history of BoD, it is absolutely clear that it was nothing more than speculation.  It was NOT revealed and not part of Apostolic Tradition.

It's alarming how many Traditional Catholics believe in Rahner's αnσnymσus Christianity ... without even knowing it.  One might say that they are αnσnymσus αnσnymσus Christians.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2021, 10:35:39 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 10, 2021, 09:29:13 AM
But..but..but...St Alphonsus...
.
Nice to see quotes from long ago address problems of today.

Sure, and there are 5 or 6 Church Fathers who can be quoted as explicitly and unequivocally rejecting Baptism of Desire, but the BoD zealots like to claim that this is something that's been believed "always and everywhere" by all Catholics.   Hogwash, or to use a Fr. Cekada expression, "nonsense on stilts."  They'll pretend these quotes don't exist and keep dragging out the same one from St. Augustine .. while also ignoring quotes from the later Augustine.

I imagine that there will be no comment on this thread by any of the BoD zealots.  They'll simply ignore it, refuse to look at the overall objective picture, and will keep re-spamming the same BoD quotes they have ready in their PC clipboard for any occasion.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2021, 10:41:43 AM »
Questions for BoDers (rhetorical since they'll never actually answer);

1) So, were the 5 or 6 Church Fathers who rejected BoD simply mistaken?

If they answer yes, then the followup question:  Well, if they were mistaken, how is it not possible that St. Augustine was in fact mistaken, while these were actually right?

2) Was St. Augustine mistaken in believing that he had been earlier mistaken about BoD?

3) Was Pope St. Siricius mistaken in maintaining that every one who dies without Baptism is lost, despite desiring it?

Followup:  Well, how do we know, then, that Pope Innocent II and II weren't mistaken, rather than Pope St. Siricius?
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2021, 10:44:35 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on March 10, 2021, 10:41:43 AM
If they answer yes, then the followup question:  Well, if they were mistaken, how is it not possible that St. Augustine was in fact mistaken, while these were actually right?

Answer:  St. Augustine was not mistaken because later Popes talked about BoD.

Rebuttal:  Well, that's interesting, since those Popes based their opinion on the "authority" of St. Augustine.  So St. Augustine was right because of the authority of Popes who based their opinion on the authority of St. Augustine.  That is CIRCULAR authority.

You'll notice that all of BoD theory rests upon a self-contained "authority" cycle, where all roads lead back to St. Augustine.  But then St. Augustine rejected BoD ... which completely wrecks the entire house of cards.
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Offline Tradman

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2021, 10:46:04 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on March 10, 2021, 10:25:58 AM
Right, I regularly hear the NO types on EWTN radio speak of the Sacraments are merely a more certain or better path to justification and salvation, in other words, as being "optional" ... which was condemned by Trent as heretical.  NONE of the modern Novus Ordites (that I've heard) even pay lipservice to the dogma by saying that these people receive the Sacraments in voto.

Anyone who OBJECTIVELY (i.e. without an agenda) looks at the history of BoD, it is absolutely clear that it was nothing more than speculation.  It was NOT revealed and not part of Apostolic Tradition.

It's alarming how many Traditional Catholics believe in Rahner's αnσnymσus Christianity ... without even knowing it.  One might say that they are αnσnymσus αnσnymσus Christians.
Watching bod develop has been aggravating. The progression of what was once perhaps innocently considered, to what is now accepted is a clue that this has always been an attack on the sacraments and on baptism specifically.  Either that, or the devil forgot to bother.      
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