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Author Topic: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire  (Read 8992 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« on: March 10, 2021, 09:03:48 AM »
We've heard a lot about Popes Innocent II and/or Innocent the II endorsing the notion of BoD, but the proponents of BoD ignore this decree from Pope St. Siricius.  Unlike those two letters from the Innocents, this was was presented as authoritative papal teaching, addressed to the entire Church, finishing with the statement that what he decreed should be observed by all those who  qui nolunt ab apostolicae petrae, super quam Christus universalem construxit Ecclesiam, soliditate divelli "who do not wish to be severed from the solidity of the Apostolic Rock upon which Christ founded the universal Church."  This docuмent seems to meet all the notes of papal infallibility (unlike the other two, which were not addressed to the Universal Church and in which the Popes were clearly opining rather than authoritatively teaching).

Here's the key section.

Quote
Sicut sacram ergo paschalem reverentiam in nullo dicimus esse minuendam, ita infantibus qui necdum loqui poterunt per aetatem vel his, quibus in qualibet necessitate opus fuerit sacra unda baptismatis, omni volumus celeritate succurri, ne ad nostrarum perniciem tendat animarum, si negato desiderantibus fonte salutari exiens unusquisque de saeculo et regnum perdat et vitam.

MY TRANSLATION:
"Not to derogate in any way from the respect owed to Easter [my comment:  when Baptisms were normally done], so it is our will, in the case of infants who can not yet speak on account of their age, or in the case of those would have any kind of urgent need for the waters of Baptism, that they be given aid with all haste, lest it endanger our souls, were each an every one leaving this world to forfeit "both the kingdom and life" (very literal translation here) by denying the Saving Font to those desiring it."

Notice that he actually uses the term "desire" (vs. votum) here.  His choice of terms is undoubtedly providential, since this teaching effectively shoots down Baptism of "Desire".

He's saying here that "each and every one" or "every single one" of those denied the Sacrament ("wave of Baptism", "water movement of Baptism", another water word like "laver" in Trent) would lose eternal life in the Kingdom while DESIRING to receive it.

In other words, of those desiring to receive it, every single one of them would lose their soul without the Sacrament of Baptism ("water pouring" of Baptism).

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2021, 09:09:08 AM »
And the typical confirmation bias of those who promote BoD causes them to ignore this.

See, unlike the BoD zealouts, the "Feeneyites" acknowledge the existence of contrary indicators or contrary evidence.  We admit that St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine, et al. believed in BoD.  There's no need to keep re-spamming these quotes over and over again.  But, being objective, we ALSO see evidence AGAINST Baptism of Desire, including the 5 or 6 Church Fathers who categorically rejected it (Fathers whom the BoD zealots filter out of the equation).

So to look at the picture, some were in favor and some were against.  This leaves the overall status of BoD as a controverted matter.  I hold that this decree from Pope St. Siricius demolishes Baptism of Desire, as does the dogmatic definition that there's no salvation outside the "Church of the faithful."


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2021, 09:12:10 AM »
Now, the Pope could have said, in Latin, ne quis ... lest ANY of those lose their soul in being denied the Sacrament while desiring it.

No, instead, he quite deliberately uses the emphatic Latin unusquisque which means EVERY SINGLE ONE.

He's saying that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them would be lost if they did not receive the Sacrament (the "washing" or "pouring of water") ... even while DESRING to receive it.  This completely precludes any notion of Baptism of Desire.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2021, 09:29:13 AM »
But..but..but...St Alphonsus...
.
Nice to see quotes from long ago address problems of today.

Offline Tradman

  • Supporter
Re: Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2021, 10:13:27 AM »
And the typical confirmation bias of those who promote BoD causes them to ignore this.

See, unlike the BoD zealouts, the "Feeneyites" acknowledge the existence of contrary indicators or contrary evidence.  We admit that St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine, et al. believed in BoD.  There's no need to keep re-spamming these quotes over and over again.  But, being objective, we ALSO see evidence AGAINST Baptism of Desire, including the 5 or 6 Church Fathers who categorically rejected it (Fathers whom the BoD zealots filter out of the equation).

So to look at the picture, some were in favor and some were against.  This leaves the overall status of BoD as a controverted matter.  I hold that this decree from Pope St. Siricius demolishes Baptism of Desire, as does the dogmatic definition that there's no salvation outside the "Church of the faithful."
The OP is undeniable. And this seals the deal. Bod was controverted, period. Nothing about it is was approved or settled and it remains undefinable by it's nature.  Bod is a long endured subversive tactic like the airplane-interview type continual deceptive Bergoglian redefinition of Catholic doctrine.  Apparently discernment is rare these days.  Otherwise respected Novus Ordo Fr J Hardon had the nerve to say, Baptism is the formal way to salvation, bod is the informal.  How long for that garbage to penetrate the already compromised traditional Catholic?