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Author Topic: Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists  (Read 6337 times)

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Offline Matto

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Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2013, 12:44:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Charlemagne
    This reminds me of something Bp. Sanborn said years ago. Someone had asked him what he thought of women's ordination. He responded, "I'm all for it!" The questioner was stunned and asked him why. He said (paraphrasing), "Because then there will be no doubt in anyone's mind that the Conciliar Church is a counterfeit. No one will be able to straddle the fence any longer."


    I think this is wisdom from Bishop Sanborn.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #46 on: May 24, 2013, 01:00:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: ascent
    I came here to see if Francis actually said what Huff Post reported, but it is not yet listed in the Vatican Homilies page. The homily reportedly occurred on May 22.

    It wouldn't surprise me if he said it, but I need to hear it from an official source, not Huff Post.


    And when, or if, you do find it save a copy of it somewhere.  The novus ordites aren't idiots.  Once they realize that proof is out there of their shenanigans, they generally remove it.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #47 on: May 24, 2013, 04:34:54 PM »
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  • .


    The key doctrine in all this is that mankind is redeemed by the Blood of
    Our Lord Jesus Christ.  Mankind is not redeemed by what mankind does.


    I opened the Huff and Puffington Post site in a new tab, and now when I
    hover my mouse over the tab, the info preview box that appears says this:

    Quote

    Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics



    As ascent and Capt McQuigg above say, the official version of
    what the Pope said are not to be found on the Internet.  I suspect they
    are correct. I can't find them either. So this little info box I get when I
    hover my mouse is no doubt not a direct quote.

    Be that as it may, the little box has a sentence in it that is objectively
    erroneous by implication.

    There are three parts to the short sentence:

    1)  Pope Francis says...
    2)  Atheists who do good are redeemed.
    3)  Not only Catholics who do good are THEREBY redeemed, but so
           are Atheists.

    Now, number 1) is something we can't presently verify, so put it on ice
    for now. But let's look at 3) first.

    3) is not literally what the sentence in the little box says, but it is a
    natural implication that the reader will infer from reading the sentence.
    The proof that is true you can see by looking at the title of this thread,
    which is another example of something naturally inferred by reading the
    sentence in my browser preview box:  "Pope Francis Opens the Gates
    of Heaven to Atheists."
     But that isn't what the Pope is doing, either,
    nor is it what he is literally saying, by any unofficial account to be
    found.  But here that is, nonetheless.  And when you do a quick
    Internet search you'll find this is the only Internet site currently that
    has that sentence to read on it, for it's the top 10 hits, and hit #11
    is "Heaven for Atheists?" on Religion.Blogs.CNN.com.

    So, in this arena, CathInfo is the indisputable world leader!  

    Why someone didn't step in right away and intervene in this erroneous
    and scandalous thread title is anyone's guess.  It's giving CathInfo a
    pretty bad rep, and rightly so!

    But there is a problem with 3), namely, that it is IN TRUTH NOT by
    their own doing of good (works) that anyone is ever redeemed.  

    Let me say that in another way so there is no mistake:  

    Nobody is ever spiritually redeemed by their own doing of anything
    good. IOW not even Catholics are redeemed by their own doing of
    good. But that wouldn't make any headlines.  

    Everyone in the history of the world, even those who have not yet
    been born are in fact redeemed by the good work of Our Lord Jesus
    Christ by His perfect atonement on the Cross, for our sins. Our
    redemption has been achieved in time, almost 2,000 years ago.  And
    that goes for atheists too.  

    But the redemption that we are talking about is only in potency, not
    in act, because for it to be completed we must cooperate with God's
    grace, and that is something that atheists only do TO THE EXTENT
    that they do good. They do not cooperate with God's grace to
    the extent that they remain atheists.  Nor do they cooperate with
    God's grace when they do good without having a good intention.  

    A great example of this is found on another thread about 'chemtrails'
    going on right now, where ALGore and Ellen agree that it's a
    great idea to abstain from eating meat one day a week. Well, then
    that would make them traditional Catholics, wouldn't it??  Well, no,
    for three reasons,  1)  they do not believe the Catholic Faith,
    2)  they do not have any intention of doing what the Church does
    or teaches, and  3)  the day they have in mind for abstinence (they
    say, 'not eating meat', and do not utter the word, 'abstinence',
    which is probably close to if not entirely 'profanity' to them due to
    the implications) is not Friday but MONDAY -- why? Because Paul
    McCartney said so. Therefore, Paul McCartney has far more
    authority for these two deviants than does Holy Mother Church.

    Any TRULY good intention is necessarily in harmony with the
    teachings of the Church, which is a case entirely unknown to us
    when someone who is doing objective good has not learned what the
    Church teaches.  When redemption is completed in a man it is still
    redemption, but it is then also justification.

    So the Huff-and-Puffington article does not say this (but this is what
    people who read it think) that the Pope said that atheists are
    justified
    by doing good.  But we know that is not what he said,
    because no source has shown up using the word "justified." And other
    people reading it think it means that atheists are saved by doing
    good.  But the Pope certainly did not say that either.

    You might get some kind of thrill going to see Fr. Z's blog, where a
    topic is:

    Pope Francis on the possibility of salvation for atheists | Fr. Z's Blog

    We can be sure he didn't say that because if he had said that it would
    be all over every front page on the planet, even in RED China.
    So Fr. Z's blog even gets a leg up on Communism.  Go figure.  

    Finally, 2)  is properly understood by seeing the distinction between
    saved, justified and redeemed.  It is not the atheist's doing of good
    works that redeems him.  His doing of good might be a kind of fringe
    benefit of the fact that he is redeemed, but not necessarily. To be
    more accurate, it could have said  2)  Atheists are redeemed whether
    they do good or evil.
    Maybe Pope Francis is saving that one for
    next month or next year.  Can you imagine what the headlines would
    be then?



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    Offline roscoe

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    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #48 on: May 24, 2013, 04:59:46 PM »
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  • Unelected, Illegal Anti-pope.  :detective:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #49 on: May 24, 2013, 08:56:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    He wasn't even ambiguous.  He said that we are all redeemed by the blood of Christ (fine) and that that Blood makes us all Children of God of the first class.

    That is error, plain and simple.  Atheists are not Children of God in any sense other than the very basic and vague sense which says they were created by God.  Only baptized members of the Church (Catholics) are Children of God in any meaningful sense at all.



    Where did this part come from? Same sermon?


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #50 on: May 24, 2013, 09:07:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    He wasn't even ambiguous.  He said that we are all redeemed by the blood of Christ (fine) and that that Blood makes us all Children of God of the first class.

    That is error, plain and simple.  Atheists are not Children of God in any sense other than the very basic and vague sense which says they were created by God.  Only baptized members of the Church (Catholics) are Children of God in any meaningful sense at all.



    Where did this part come from? Same sermon?


    Yes.  Here is what he said:

    Quote
    The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class!


    There are so many things wrong here, it's difficult to know where to start.  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Sunbeam

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    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #51 on: May 25, 2013, 11:25:35 AM »
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  • Quote

    Quote
    The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class!


    There are so many things wrong here, it's difficult to know where to start.


    To put it simply: Mr Humility seems to have failed in making the due distinction between REDEMPTION and SALVATION.

    Its the same screw-up which led to the mistranslation of "pro multis" within the words of consecration for the Blessed Eucharist.

    It is not as if a proper understanding of the matter is difficult to grasp, To express it in my own unrefined words:

    The blood of Christ has infinite merit; the sacrificial shedding of it at the Crucifixion released a power sufficient to save all men from their sins; with His own blood, Our Lord paid the price sufficient to redeem all men from the clutch of Satan. That is why he is called the Redeemer.

    What the Redemption did not do was to strip men of their free will. Therefore, every man still has the choice either of accepting the salvation won for him by our Blessed Lord, or of disregarding and rejecting it.

    Thus, all men have been REDEEMED, but not all men will be SAVED, and this latter result will be from their own fault.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #52 on: June 04, 2013, 11:06:45 AM »
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  • Quote from: Sunbeam
    Quote

    Quote
    The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class!


    There are so many things wrong here, it's difficult to know where to start.


    To put it simply: Mr Humility seems to have failed in making the due distinction between REDEMPTION and SALVATION.

    Its the same screw-up which led to the mistranslation of "pro multis" within the words of consecration for the Blessed Eucharist.

    It is not as if a proper understanding of the matter is difficult to grasp, To express it in my own unrefined words:

    The blood of Christ has infinite merit; the sacrificial shedding of it at the Crucifixion released a power sufficient to save all men from their sins; with His own blood, Our Lord paid the price sufficient to redeem all men from the clutch of Satan. That is why he is called the Redeemer.

    What the Redemption did not do was to strip men of their free will. Therefore, every man still has the choice either of accepting the salvation won for him by our Blessed Lord, or of disregarding and rejecting it.

    Thus, all men have been REDEEMED, but not all men will be SAVED, and this latter result will be from their own fault.



    You are correct, Sunbeam, and it is a good thing to keep this simple so it
    is easily explainable to people, especially those who are not familiar with
    Catholic doctrine.

    What I'm about to say is not intended for such uninformed individuals.

    After you have studied the faith, by way of catechism class, and asking
    questions and paying attention to the answers, and have been baptized,
    and have accepted the faith, and then you have taken some classes in
    Thomistic philosophy a.k.a. philosophia perennis (the continuous and
    apostolic philosophy of Holy Mother Church most completely expounded
    by St. Thomas Aquinas), then you would be prepared to know that in very
    small nuances at the foundational level, tremendous differences can be
    evoked at a more developed level.  So that, for example a young sapling
    only a few feet tall, if stepped on by a person or a wild animal such that
    it is bent over to the side, and it then continues to grow, will grow into a
    tree that is always bent over to the side.  One small change at the early
    stage results in a very dramatic difference in a later development.  Or,
    at the beginning of a journey, if one makes a wrong turn and proceeds
    thereafter without correcting the wrong turn, one will end up far away
    from one's intended destination.  

    As applies to the Faith, and to redemption and salvation and justification,
    there are two kinds of being involved.  The most common kind, and that
    which is presumed by most upon hearing (or reading) a sentence, is
    being in act.  An example is, someone who has been baptized is so
    baptized in fact, or "in act," as in the act of holy Baptism that makes
    them baptized.  Or, when you go to confession, and receive absolution,
    your sins are forgiven "in act."  The other kind of being is "in potency,"
    which means potentially speaking.  It is being, but it is not the same
    kind of being.  A catechumen, for example, is baptized in potency
    before his baptism is done because of his intention to be baptized. Your
    sins are forgiven in potency when you are standing in line for Confession
    because of your intention to confess your sins, receive absolution, do
    your prescribed penance and to amend your life by avoiding the near
    occasion of sin and by freeing yourself from all your attachment to sin.
    But the catechumen is not yet baptized and your sins are not yet
    absolved, in act, even while the catechumen is baptized in potency and
    your sins are forgiven in potency before you go to confession.  

    For someone who has not studied philosophy this can be very confusing,
    and for a child, he is likely to entirely misunderstand.  For example, to
    say to a child that he may not have a cookie is something he can deal
    with, but to tell him that he can have a cookie in potency but not in act
    is something that he will have a lot of problems with, and unnecessarily
    so!  Who would do that to a child????

    But that is precisely what Pope Francis is doing with his spiritual children
    by saying what he said about atheists!  He is telling a child that he can
    have a cookie in potency -- but he is not explaining that he cannot have
    the cookie in act!!  On a spiritual level, this is simply cruelty!



    The only possible result is that MOST PEOPLE HEARING THIS
    WILL NOT UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH, BUT WILL BE DECEIVED
    BY MISUNDERSTANDING.



    Modernism does this to the Faith.  A Modernist sees ambiguity and half-truths
    as some kind of virtue, or good thing, or desirable state of affairs.  To a
    Modernist, to say something that can most likely be misinterpreted is a kind
    of achievement. It is their objective to be vague, and it is their desire to
    be misunderstood.  For a Modernist, to engender misunderstanding is the
    way to "progress" because then the new TENSION and CONFLICT that
    results from two groups of people -- one group who understands properly
    and the other group who has been confused by the ambiguity -- can have
    their disagreements and by that they can work out a compromise or an
    accommodation, by which there can be a "movement" into the future, and
    a newness can then emerge, like what you get when you buy a new car,
    that "new car smell."  

    A Modernist wants to put his "new car smell" into the doctrines of the Church.



    Quote
    Thus, all men have been REDEEMED, but not all men will be SAVED, and this latter result will be from their own fault.


    When you tell this to a Protestant, for example, it's like Greek or
    something, for they do not understand the difference between redemption
    and being "saved."  They think that all they have to do is "accept Jesus as
    their personal Lord and Savior," and then they are "saved."  I like to tell
    them, "You're Not Saved Until You're Dead."  That generally stops
    the conversation, because they can't cope with the thought.  It's like when
    you tell them that to become a "Doctor of the Catholic Church," you have
    to have died and then you receive the title posthumously, usually at least
    100 years later, and perhaps centuries, they say, "Oh, well, that's rather
    unfortunate!"  And I say, actually, it's a great honor to become a Doctor of
    the Church, and it's not 'unfortunate' at all.  They just don't seem to get it.
    They go off thinking Catholics are a very strange lot.

    When one does not understand the Faith, one is at a great loss to be able
    to comprehend any of the details outside the context of the Church's
    doctrine.  This goes to exemplify the dogma that outside the Church there
    is no salvation.  For in ignorance of what the Church teaches, it is quite
    impossible to grasp any particular doctrine without having some kind of
    latent error.  

    And the Pope should know this.  His words should be clear and solid, so
    as to not mislead those who hear his voice.  And it is not any kind of
    achievement to find words that just miss the edge of apostasy
    by
    getting really close -- such that non-Catholics looking at it will then be
    confirmed in their error by misunderstanding what he says, and a child who
    is being told that he cannot have a cookie goes away thinking that he most
    certainly CAN have the cookie.  In fact, he might even go away holding the
    cookie!  



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