Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists  (Read 6334 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline roscoe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7679
  • Reputation: +646/-418
  • Gender: Male
Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2013, 08:43:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Anti--pope!!! :reporter:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8277/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #16 on: May 22, 2013, 08:47:59 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .

    CAREFUL!!!!

    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: MyrnaM

    Makes one wonder why Our Lord bothered to found a Church since everyone is saved anyway!

    The early Christian conscience had not yet collectively developed the [FALSE] doctrine of universal Salvation.



    It would seem that they at least had some sense of the danger, but to
    them, they had no idea that the world would endure for thousands of
    years and go through all those ages of numerous heresies.  Remember,
    they were careful to put "pro multis" in the Canon of the Mass!  Leave
    it to the wreckovationists post Vat.II to try to morph that into "for all."

    Likewise, we can't really know how many more new heresies will rise up
    yet in future years, for to us, it would seem that they're already all played
    out.  And we have a better grasp of this than the early Church did, since
    we have the track record of heresies that pretty much followed the list in
    articles I - XII of the Apostles' Creed, as if it had been a script for a play.  
    It's as though they were infallibly prescient in not only number of heresies
    but their chronological order of occurrence for two thousand years into the
    future.

    And then, to "top it off" (I don't want to say "icing on the cake!") we have
    the Grand Sewer of All Heresies, MODERNISM, which combines them all.

    So what, pray tell, could there be after that?  If we live long enough we'll
    find out!  

    This is why doctrine is so important, because it only takes a tiny chink in
    the armor of the Faith for the devil to sneak in and do his dirty work.  

    Everyone is potentially saved, but not actually saved.  So the Modernists
    like to use that hairline crack to proclaim ambiguity from the housetops,
    when they should be proclaiming the truth from the housetops.  We have
    reached the age when too many clerics (any number would be too many!)
    think it's somehow virtuous to proclaim ambiguity.  That got to be really
    a big fad with the unclean spirit of Vatican II.



    Quote from: bowler

    They didn't have the drugs we have today.



    True enough.   :laugh1:


    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Sigismund

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5386
    • Reputation: +3123/-52
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #17 on: May 22, 2013, 08:49:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: Cato
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

    Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics


    Outrageous.


    Words no longer have any meaning anyway, who knows what redeemed means?

    Nayhting goes, here's some more that are saved now too:

    “Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.  There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved.”

    “One cannot say, then, that no one is saved in these religions…”

    “This is then what Pius IX said and what he condemned.  It is necessary to understand the formulation that was so often employed by the Fathers of the Church:  ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’  When we say that, it is incorrectly believed that we think that all the Protestants, all the Moslems, all the Buddhists, all those who do not publicly belong to the Catholic Church go to hell.  Now, I repeat, it is possible for someone to be saved in these religions, but they are saved by the Church, and so the formulation is true: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.  This must be preached.”

     “We know that there are two other baptisms, that of desire and that of blood. These produce an invisible but real link with Christ but do not produce all of the effects which are received in the baptism of water… And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.”


    Bowler,

    What is the source of the underlined quote?

    Thanks.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline bowler

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3299
    • Reputation: +15/-2
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #18 on: May 22, 2013, 09:22:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Sigismund
    Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: Cato
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

    Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics


    Outrageous.


    Words no longer have any meaning anyway, who knows what redeemed means?

    Anything goes today, here's some more groups that are saved now too, why not atheists:

    “Evidently, certain distinctions must be made.  Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion.  There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire.  It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved.”

    “One cannot say, then, that no one is saved in these religions…”

    “This is then what Pius IX said and what he condemned.  It is necessary to understand the formulation that was so often employed by the Fathers of the Church:  ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’  When we say that, it is incorrectly believed that we think that all the Protestants, all the Moslems, all the Buddhists, all those who do not publicly belong to the Catholic Church go to hell.  Now, I repeat, it is possible for someone to be saved in these religions, but they are saved by the Church, and so the formulation is true: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.  This must be preached.”

    “We know that there are two other baptisms, that of desire and that of blood. These produce an invisible but real link with Christ but do not produce all of the effects which are received in the baptism of water… And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.”
     


    Bowler,

    What is the source of your quotes?

    Thanks.  


    I got rid of the underlining it was a bothersome goof-up.

    The source for the first three is Abp. Lefebvre, and the last is Bishop Fellay.

    Offline Kazimierz

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7703
    • Reputation: +3929/-89
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #19 on: May 22, 2013, 11:19:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • apokastastasis was condemned in the early Church, but it keeps raising its serpentine head from time to time.

    A form of this universalism was taught/believed by John Paul II. So it is no surprise that JP2 was influenced and admirer of that late heretical writer Hans Urs vob Balthasar (cf esp his Holy Saturday theology which clearly illustrates this.) His involvement with the extremely dubious mystic, Adrienne von Speyr, gives further evidence why his writings should be removed. They still use his works at certain Counterfeit Church seminaries (speaking from first hand observation.)

    The influence of Karl Rahner, another great bane of theology, has equally proved detrimental. Simply put, wer are so infused by grace via the supernatural existential, everybody is an anonymous Christian just waiting to become an explicit one. Incarnation saved EVERYBODY. Paschal Mystery just a necessary little historical thing to get out of the way but not as critical. In Rahner's theology, one CANNOT say no to God. I call that damned to salvation. Free will is subsumed.

    Very very VERY dangerous stuff, that has influenced many a modern counterfeit cleric and layman.
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster


    Offline Marlelar

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3473
    • Reputation: +1816/-234
    • Gender: Female
    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #20 on: May 22, 2013, 11:43:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matto
    I don't know if Pope Francis is Pope or not, but I don't think he is Catholic.  :cry:


    A man must be Catholic to become a valid Pope.

    Marsha

    Offline InfiniteFaith

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1590
    • Reputation: +168/-2
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #21 on: May 23, 2013, 01:04:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I find all of this hard to believe. I wouldn't doubt that it is being taken out of context. While I agree that atheists can do good deeds that is not enough for salvation. I'm not so sure that Pope Francis was stating that an atheist can go to Heaven.

    Offline InfiniteFaith

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1590
    • Reputation: +168/-2
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #22 on: May 23, 2013, 01:13:41 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    I find all of this hard to believe. I wouldn't doubt that it is being taken out of context. While I agree that atheists can do good deeds that is not enough for salvation. I'm not so sure that Pope Francis was stating that an atheist can go to Heaven.


    Here is exactly what He said. He never said that an atheist will go to Heaven...

    http://newsone.com/2475438/pope-francis-atheists/

    I actually agree with what He is preaching. Atheists are capable of doing good.


    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8277/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #23 on: May 23, 2013, 02:21:09 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .


    It's the way the media present it that is wrong, not what the Pope said.

    But the Pope opened the door by being ambiguous.  

    Everyone is redeemed, true enough, but what good does that do for
    those who die in mortal sin or without Baptism?  Redemption does not
    take the place of Baptism, nor of absolution, nor of perfect contrition.  

    How can an atheist have perfect contrition and still be an atheist?  If his
    contrition is perfect, it necessarily includes the abjuration of error, among
    which is no faith in the existence of God.  How can someone who does
    not believe in God be perfectly sorry for his sins?  

    The Pope doesn't want to "go there," apparently, but he really should
    be "going there" all the time.  That's what a pope is for.

    The pope should be speaking on spiritual matters, but here this on is
    talking about material, temporal things, like doing good, getting along,
    working with each other, being happy, feeling good.  What does that have
    to do with salvation?  

    This is a big problem.  He might as well be a Buddhist and talk like this.



    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Incredulous

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 9485
    • Reputation: +9267/-931
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #24 on: May 23, 2013, 03:24:38 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • Can a freemason be a pope ?
    Does anyone have a definitive answer







    Masonic meaning of the Hidden Hand

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4623
    • Reputation: +5367/-479
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #25 on: May 23, 2013, 07:39:52 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .


    It's the way the media present it that is wrong, not what the Pope said.

    But the Pope opened the door by being ambiguous.  

    Everyone is redeemed, true enough, but what good does that do for
    those who die in mortal sin or without Baptism?  Redemption does not
    take the place of Baptism, nor of absolution, nor of perfect contrition.  

    How can an atheist have perfect contrition and still be an atheist?  If his
    contrition is perfect, it necessarily includes the abjuration of error, among
    which is no faith in the existence of God.  How can someone who does
    not believe in God be perfectly sorry for his sins?  

    The Pope doesn't want to "go there," apparently, but he really should
    be "going there" all the time.  That's what a pope is for.

    The pope should be speaking on spiritual matters, but here this on is
    talking about material, temporal things, like doing good, getting along,
    working with each other, being happy, feeling good.  What does that have
    to do with salvation?  

    This is a big problem.  He might as well be a Buddhist and talk like this.





    He wasn't even ambiguous.  He said that we are all redeemed by the blood of Christ (fine) and that that Blood makes us all Children of God of the first class.

    That is error, plain and simple.  Atheists are not Children of God in any sense other than the very basic and vague sense which says they were created by God.  Only baptized members of the Church (Catholics) are Children of God in any meaningful sense at all.

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline JPaul

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3832
    • Reputation: +3723/-293
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #26 on: May 23, 2013, 09:08:43 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It is Catholic Truth that all are born as children of wrath until Holy Baptism makes them into the Children of God.

    It may be objectively true that all men are born to the likeness and image of God, but that is far different from being an elect who is in the way of salvation.
    To conflate the two is gravely erroneous, but is typical of the universalist conciliar mind, holding that all are saved through Christ simply because they were born.

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8277/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #27 on: May 23, 2013, 09:16:36 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    .


    It's the way the media present it that is wrong, not what the Pope said.

    But the Pope opened the door by being ambiguous.  

    Everyone is redeemed, true enough, but what good does that do for
    those who die in mortal sin or without Baptism?  Redemption does not
    take the place of Baptism, nor of absolution, nor of perfect contrition.  

    How can an atheist have perfect contrition and still be an atheist?  If his
    contrition is perfect, it necessarily includes the abjuration of error, among
    which is no faith in the existence of God.  How can someone who does
    not believe in God be perfectly sorry for his sins?  

    The Pope doesn't want to "go there," apparently, but he really should
    be "going there" all the time.  That's what a pope is for.

    The pope should be speaking on spiritual matters, but here this on is
    talking about material, temporal things, like doing good, getting along,
    working with each other, being happy, feeling good.  What does that have
    to do with salvation?  

    This is a big problem.  He might as well be a Buddhist and talk like this.





    He wasn't even ambiguous.  He said that we are all redeemed by the blood of Christ (fine) and that that Blood makes us all Children of God of the first class.

    That is error, plain and simple.  Atheists are not Children of God in any sense other than the very basic and vague sense which says they were created by God.  Only baptized members of the Church (Catholics) are Children of God in any meaningful sense at all.




    Again, it's a philosophical nuance that introduces ambiguity.  

    There is no reason for the Pope to speak this way, except to promote
    confusion, which is not what a pope should be doing.

    We are all redeemed by the Blood of Christ -- that is a fact. God desires
    the salvation of all men, but that doesn't mean it therefore happens.  

    The Blood of Our Lord is fully capable to save every human creature, for
    it has that power -- are you denying this?  

    The Blood of Our Lord has the power to make us all Children of God of the
    first class -- are you denying this?  

    What is the difference?  

    At the risk of repeating myself, I'm going to repeat myself:

    The day before the wedding are bride and groom married?  

    In a sense, they are: in potency they are married.  They have the
    intention, and the desire, and they have invited guests, and they have
    rented things for the reception, and they have promised themselves to
    each other, and if they would remain faithful, they could say "We are
    married," and they would not be lying, even though they have not yet
    exchanged vows -- they would not be lying, provided they understand
    that their marriage is in potency, that is, everything is ready for it to
    take place, and they truly intend for that to happen as planned. But
    just like so-called baptism of desire, the marriage has not happened
    yet because they have not made their public profession of it, and they
    have not exchanged vows yet. Therefore the marriage has not been
    formalized, and it is not a marriage in act yet.  Don't confuse this
    with whether the marriage is consummated or not.  That's a different
    issue. That involves legitimacy or illegitimacy.

    Their promise to each other makes them husband and wife of the
    first class -- in potency, but not in act.
    They will become husband
    and wife of the first class in act when they exchange vows, and that
    is supposed to happen with witnesses, so they can testify to the fact
    to a third party at a later time, if necessary.  The reason this is the
    tradition is, a con man could say, "We are married if we just make
    this exchange of vows right now," and he and the woman could go
    through the motions of their little private ceremony with no witnesses,
    and then he could claim that they are married, and therefore, "there's
    nothing standing in our way anymore," etc., etc. But then the next
    day, he could deny it, and when she says, "But you said..."  it would
    be of no effect, because THERE ARE NO WITNESSES to testify to
    the fact.  The con man would be a liar, and a cheat, and in mortal
    sin (if he knew what mortal sin is), but there is a serious defect in
    the so-called marriage, namely, even though he said he was taking
    her as his wife to have and to hold from this day forward, etc., he had
    no intention of doing so, as he proved the next day by denying it.

    So the wedding and the witnesses and the minister are all there for
    the protection of the wife-to-be, and in some sense for the husband-
    to-be as well.  

    Similarly, the Blood of Christ makes us all Children of God of the first
    class,
    but not in act, only in potency.

    So for the Pope to say this in this context is a HALF TRUTH, as is
    clearly demonstrated by the confusion it instills in those who hear him,
    those who do not understand this philosophical nuance, and perhaps
    even those who read this post and don't want to believe it.

    And any half-truth is a whole lie, therefore, the Pope lied.  That's bad.



    I have provided the example of the con-man schemer for a reason,
    for when the Pope says these things about redemption in such an
    ambiguous way, and it is indeed ambiguous, he becomes therefore a
    supporter and a defender of the con-man schemer, as it were, for he
    is saying that it's okay to be confused with whether one is a child of
    God in potency or in act.  But it's not okay to be confused, so what
    the Pope is promoting by this ambiguity is EVIL and it is therefore  
    OF THE DEVIL, and that is BAD.




    Sede note:  But that doesn't mean he is therefore not the Pope.



    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8277/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #28 on: May 23, 2013, 09:46:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: J.Paul
    It is Catholic Truth that all are born as children of wrath until Holy Baptism makes them into the Children of God.

    It may be objectively true that all men are born to the likeness and image of God, but that is far different from being an elect who is in the way of salvation.

    To conflate the two is gravely erroneous, but is typical of the universalist conciliar mind, holding that all are saved through Christ simply because they were born.


    If you want to think of it this way, that's fine.  It is a more simple
    approach, and in many ways, simplicity is better.  

    For anyone who prefers to have a deeper understanding, however,
    there are nuances in what you say that could use clarification, such
    as "we are born to the likeness and image of God."  Right away the
    listener presumes that means we are born as Our Lord was born, as
    a little baby with pink cheeks, etc.  That is not exactly what is
    meant by "image of God."  Before Our Lord was born, God had not
    appeared as a little baby with pink cheeks. What about all the men
    who had been born before then -- were they somehow less of the
    image of God?  No, they were not, because we are like unto the
    image of God not because of our physical appearance in our bodies
    but because of our soul's capacity to reason and our will's ability
    to choose with freedom, such as between good and evil. It is these
    two characteristics, the intellect and the will, that distinguish us
    from all the animals, and it is these two characteristics, intellect
    and free will, that make us "born to the likeness of God."  It is a
    spiritual image, not a physical image, that makes us like God. God
    became man in time, and at that time raised human nature to a
    higher reality, but only in potency, not in act.  For it still requires
    man's participation by his meet cooperation with God's grace to raise
    his own human nature in act to the sanctified state of sanctifying
    grace and persevering that way to then die in that state and
    therefore be saved. You said this, actually, with (being born in the
    image and likeness of God) "is far different from being an elect who
    is in the way of salvation."

    "To conflate the two is gravely erroneous, but is typical of the universalist
    conciliar mind, holding that all are saved through Christ simply because
    they were born."  This is true, what you say about them.  It could be
    that Pope Francis is of this mind, for his words would seem not to preclude
    it. He has not specifically said as much, but he has not said the contrary
    so as to rule out the implied error, either.  More ambiguity, and he says
    these things with a smile, as if he is taking pleasure in being ambiguous.





    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline roscoe

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7679
    • Reputation: +646/-418
    • Gender: Male
    Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists
    « Reply #29 on: May 23, 2013, 01:56:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: roscoe
    Anti--pope!!! :reporter:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'