Author Topic: Pope Francis opens the Gates of Heaven to Atheists (Read 6276 times)

Cato · « **on:** May 22, 2013, 07:09:30 PM »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

Outrageous.

Matto · « **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2013, 07:11:14 PM »

Didn't we already know Pope Francis was like this? Anyway, I am not surprised. I wouldn't be surprised to hear Pope Francis say that Judas wasn't in Hell.

Cato · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2013, 07:14:40 PM »

Already there are apologists who are having to twist and turn Pope Francis' words to make it congruent with Catholic teaching. "Oh, the Church's teaching has never changed a bit!"

bowler · « **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2013, 07:16:48 PM »

Quote from: Cato

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

Outrageous.

Words no longer have any meaning anyway, who knows what redeemed means?

Nayhting goes, here's some more that are saved now too:

“Evidently, certain distinctions must be made. Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion. There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire. It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved.”

“One cannot say, then, that no one is saved in these religions…”

“This is then what Pius IX said and what he condemned. It is necessary to understand the formulation that was so often employed by the Fathers of the Church: ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’ When we say that, it is incorrectly believed that we think that all the Protestants, all the Moslems, all the Buddhists, all those who do not publicly belong to the Catholic Church go to hell. Now, I repeat, it is possible for someone to be saved in these religions, but they are saved by the Church, and so the formulation is true: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. This must be preached.”

“We know that there are two other baptisms, that of desire and that of blood. These produce an invisible but real link with Christ but do not produce all of the effects which are received in the baptism of water… And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.”

Matto · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2013, 07:19:24 PM »

I don't know if Pope Francis is Pope or not, but I don't think he is Catholic. :cry:

bowler · « **Reply #5 on:** May 22, 2013, 07:25:45 PM »

Quote from: Cato

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

Outrageous.

Words no longer have any meaning anyway, who knows what redeemed means?

Anyhting goes today, here's some more groups that are saved now too, why not atheists:

“Evidently, certain distinctions must be made. Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.), but not by this religion. There may be souls who, not knowing Our Lord, have by the grace of the good Lord, good interior dispositions, who submit to God...But some of these persons make an act of love which implicitly is equivalent to baptism of desire. It is uniquely by this means that they are able to be saved.”

“One cannot say, then, that no one is saved in these religions…”

“This is then what Pius IX said and what he condemned. It is necessary to understand the formulation that was so often employed by the Fathers of the Church: ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’ When we say that, it is incorrectly believed that we think that all the Protestants, all the Moslems, all the Buddhists, all those who do not publicly belong to the Catholic Church go to hell. Now, I repeat, it is possible for someone to be saved in these religions, but they are saved by the Church, and so the formulation is true: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. This must be preached.”

“We know that there are two other baptisms, that of desire and that of blood. These produce an invisible but real link with Christ but do not produce all of the effects which are received in the baptism of water… And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.”

Matto · « **Reply #6 on:** May 22, 2013, 07:29:58 PM »

I guess that those quotes you give, bowler, which I think are from Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Fellay. are similar to what Pope Francis said.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #7 on:** May 22, 2013, 07:43:23 PM »

.

Go ahead, make my day!

Quote from: Matto

I guess that those quotes you give, bowler, which I think are from Archbishop
Lefebvre and Bishop Fellay, are similar to what Pope Francis said.

Well, at least Pope Francis may have studied the work of ABL.

That might be a plus. :wink:

MyrnaM · « **Reply #8 on:** May 22, 2013, 08:15:38 PM »

Makes one wonder why Our Lord bother to found a Church since everyone is saved anyway!

MyrnaM · « **Reply #9 on:** May 22, 2013, 08:17:03 PM »

Quote from: Matto

I don't know if Pope Francis is Pope or not, but I don't think he is Catholic. :cry:

Then he can't be a Pope, since Pope is Vicar of Christ.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #10 on:** May 22, 2013, 08:17:29 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Makes one wonder why Our Lord bother to found a Church since everyone is saved anyway!

The early Christian conscience had not yet collectively developed the doctrine of universal Salvation.

bowler · « **Reply #11 on:** May 22, 2013, 08:19:41 PM »

Quote from: Matto

I guess that those quotes you give, bowler, which I think are from Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Fellay. are similar to what Pope Francis said.

Yeah, anything goes, what's the difference, it's just fallible opinions of clerics, might as well include athiests in salvation. "Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed", "Souls can be saved in a religion other than the Catholic religion (Protestantism, Islam, Buddhism, etc.)", "a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church and lives according to his conscience", whatever.

That pretty much convers everyone, except of course those that shed their blood for Christ, they are not saved, and that's dogma! :

DOGMA (not fallible human speculations)

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, 1441, ex cathedra:

The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church , not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives[/b]; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #12 on:** May 22, 2013, 08:23:38 PM »

Quote from: Cato

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

Outrageous.

It's a little outrageous, in itself, but what's really outrageous is how the media
takes it and runs with it, to go on saying in commentary things that the Pope
did not say. But it's the Pope's fault for opening the door.

His language, taken dryly and literally, is at best ambiguous, especially
seeing as how the world at large is so ignorant of Catholic doctrine.

Example:

Quote

Of course, not all Christians believe that those who don't believe will be redeemed, and the Pope's words may spark memories of the deep divisions from the Protestant reformation over the belief in redemption through grace versus redemption through works.

You can see immediately, that the author doesn't know what he's writing
about, so how does someone get the opportunity to "disseminate doctrine"
via the MSM when it's obviously wrong?

Those who don't believe are in fact redeemed. But in a very narrow sense.
They are redeemed in potency but not in act. Their redemption is available
to them by the atonement of Our Lord on the Cross, but if they don't believe
and they choose to remain atheist, their redemption will not be actually
achieved, but will forever remain something that was within their reach if
they had only cooperated with God's grace.

What the Pope hopes to achieve by leaving out the most important part
of the doctrine is anyone's guess.

Those who don't believe are therefore redeemed (potentially that is), but they
are not saved. The sentence that Protestants hate to hear is, "You're not
saved until you're dead." So, even if the Pope believes that, and who
knows if he does (I hope that he does!), he's not going to say it so long as
he keeps up with this gibberish. And so long as he doesn't say it, we won't
know if he believes it.

As for the "deep divisions from the Protestant" deformation, over
redemption through faith alone (they actually went to the trouble
of adding that word to some editions of the Bible), that is all deep divisions
of the Protestants' making alone, and what the Catholic Church
did in response was only right and proper, that is, she defended her own
doctrine from this attack from outside, where there is no salvation.

And it is wrong to say, "redemption through grace versus redemption through
works," also (besides the missing "alone") because the Catholic Church does
not teach redemption through works instead of through grace, and that is
another famous lie that everyone who doesn't know better will learn by
reading this Huff-and-Puffington Post article.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #13 on:** May 22, 2013, 08:23:38 PM »

Who here still believes that Francis is a True Pope, raise your hand!

bowler · « **Reply #14 on:** May 22, 2013, 08:23:55 PM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Quote from: MyrnaM
Makes one wonder why Our Lord bother to found a Church since everyone is saved anyway!

The early Christian conscience had not yet collectively developed the doctrine of universal Salvation.

They didn't have the drugs we have today.