Author Topic: Salvation Question (Read 2015 times)

Malleus · « **on:** October 14, 2014, 10:17:23 PM »

So let's say that any person from any religion except the Catholic religion, has lived his entire life as a non-Catholic, and has led a bad and sinful life, let's say that this person gets terribly ill or is somehow at the point of death, with only moments to live, what if this person says with sincerity, "God, forgive me! I'm sorry for my entire life and I repent of all that I have done!" and then moments later dies, does this person go straight to Hell since he/she was clearly outside the Church? He could be baptized or not baptized, I'll use both examples.

Also, this person calls out to "God" but is not even sure which God is the real God, and doesn't address any God in specific, but simply thinks of "God" as the being who rules the earth.

What about a Protestant? One who has lived his entire life as a Protestant, refusing to be Catholic and rejecting the Church? What if such a Protestant is at the point of death and says "Jesus forgive me! I repent of all the bad things I have done!", can this person go to Purgatory and hence eventually be saved, even though such a person dies clearly outside the Church?

Cantarella · « **Reply #1 on:** October 14, 2014, 10:35:05 PM »

It is Catholic dogma that Outside the Church there can be no salvation for anyone. Nobody enters Heaven with the stain of sin in their souls. Baptism is the only way of entering the Church and remitting original and actual sin, so if the person has been baptized (as in case of the Orthodox or Protestant) is extremely important.

There are three parts of the dogma of salvation: the profession of the true Faith (cannot be a infidel), the communion of the Sacraments (cannot be a heretic), and the subjection to the legitimate Pastor, the Roman Pontiff (cannot be a schismatic).

Also after getting into the initial state of sanctifying grace, it is necessary that the person perseveres in the state of grace until death; for no soul can enter Heaven in state of unconfessed mortal sin. Ignorance of the True Faith is not salvific, either. Statements such as "they do not know the Faith through no fault on their own" are modernist and pelagian.

This is what God has deign to reveal to us, sinner humans, to have the chance of salvation. If a soul is ever saved without meeting these requirements is never known to us, but God alone.

Stubborn · « **Reply #2 on:** October 15, 2014, 04:23:51 AM »

Quote from: Malleus

So let's say that any person from any religion except the Catholic religion, has lived his entire life as a non-Catholic, and has led a bad and sinful life, let's say that this person gets terribly ill or is somehow at the point of death, with only moments to live, what if this person says with sincerity, "God, forgive me! I'm sorry for my entire life and I repent of all that I have done!" and then moments later dies, does this person go straight to Hell since he/she was clearly outside the Church? He could be baptized or not baptized, I'll use both examples.

The person died while clearly outside the Church, we are bound to believe that there is no salvation for those who die outside the Church.

Assuming he was baptized, his crying out "God, forgive me etc.", could mean nothing, could mean something, there is no way for us to know - God alone would know if the person's contrition were perfect enough for God to forgive him his sins.

Assuming he was an infidel, ie not baptized, we can say with certainty by repeating the words of Our Lord that he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Quote from: Malleus

What about a Protestant? One who has lived his entire life as a Protestant, refusing to be Catholic and rejecting the Church? What if such a Protestant is at the point of death and says "Jesus forgive me! I repent of all the bad things I have done!", can this person go to Purgatory and hence eventually be saved, even though such a person dies clearly outside the Church?

Again, there is no salvation for the person who dies clearly outside of the Church. Since Protestants believe they are already saved, they would not be asking forgiveness on their death bed, they would be saying - "I'm coming home - here I come jesus!"

Malleus · « **Reply #3 on:** October 15, 2014, 03:37:37 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Since Protestants believe they are already saved, they would not be asking forgiveness on their death bed, they would be saying - "I'm coming home - here I come jesus!"

I thought about this, but do you think 100% of Protestants believe that you don't have to be contrite for your sins "once you accept Jesus", not even at the point of death?

Why would a Baptist like Kent Hovind tell Michael Shermer, a skeptic, in a debate that they (skeptics/atheists) don't want there to be a God because then they would be accountable for their actions, if Hovind believed you don't even need to be contrite for your sins at all? Or do they mean that the only thing you could be held accountable for is not believing and "accepting Jesus"?

I guess another question would be, do 100% of Protestants believe in faith alone? I don't think so.

Stubborn · « **Reply #4 on:** October 15, 2014, 05:08:31 PM »

Quote from: Malleus

Quote from: Stubborn
Since Protestants believe they are already saved, they would not be asking forgiveness on their death bed, they would be saying - "I'm coming home - here I come jesus!"

I thought about this, but do you think 100% of Protestants believe that you don't have to be contrite for your sins "once you accept Jesus", not even at the point of death?

Why would a Baptist like Kent Hovind tell Michael Shermer, a skeptic, in a debate that they (skeptics/atheists) don't want there to be a God because then they would be accountable for their actions, if Hovind believed you don't even need to be contrite for your sins at all? Or do they mean that the only thing you could be held accountable for is not believing and "accepting Jesus"?

I guess another question would be, do 100% of Protestants believe in faith alone? I don't think so.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that all prots believe in salvation via faith alone, I would challenge anyone to find one who professes the need for works. If they did profess "works", them being outside of the Church, they would necessarily have a false idea about what "works" even are.

Proof of this is everywhere within their various lex orandi's - they *all* believe in contraception, divorce, remarriage and etc., they reject all the sacraments and their necessity- they break the First Commandment every time they go to one of their "worship services" and on and on ad nausem.

I think most of us have seen prots accepting jesus as their personal savior on TV or elsewhere - I know I've seen them beg forgiveness, publicly express their sorrow and have seen tears of sorrow running down their cheeks as they were becoming a "christian" and one who is now "saved".

That right there is the prot confessing his accountability for his actions. From that point on, they are confident that they did all they really needed to do to be saved - because jesus died for all their sins for their whole life.

Once they are "saved", if they confess at all, they confess directly to jesus, which is useless, so their sins are never forgiven no matter how strongly they insist otherwise - the fact is they have no idea if their sins are forgiven or not - and we being Catholics, are to presume that their sins are not forgiven because they are outside the Church - which in itself is a sin and those who die guilty of that sin will never get to heaven.

Malleus · « **Reply #5 on:** October 15, 2014, 07:04:53 PM »

Quote from: Malleus

I guess another question would be, do 100% of Protestants believe in faith alone? I don't think so.

Yikes, meant to say, I guess the question should be.

JoeZ · « **Reply #6 on:** October 15, 2014, 08:24:54 PM »

If I may,
Being contrite or sorry for your sins mitigates the punishment due to them. The more sorry one is, the less they will pay, up to perfect contrition where the mercy of God "out does" the justice demanded as punishment for sin; Tent teaches us this. Lacking eternal punishment for sin is not the same as gaining the beatific vision. Original Sin and actual mortal sins must be cleansed from a soul through Baptism and Confession respectively. These are sacraments and require form, matter, intent, and a minister.

Please correct me if I am wrong,
God bless,
JoeZ

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #7 on:** October 15, 2014, 10:50:38 PM »

Quote from: JoeZ

These are sacraments and require form, matter, intent, and a minister

With proper matter and form, "intent and a minister" are covered.

Stubborn · « **Reply #8 on:** October 16, 2014, 05:38:36 AM »

Quote from: Malleus

Quote from: Malleus
I guess another question would be, do 100% of Protestants believe in faith alone? I don't think so.

Yikes, meant to say, I guess the question should be.

Ok, I stand corrected I guess - it looks like prots are not 100% on anything - including belief in salvation via faith alone.
In this video, it seems as though there is one prot minister criticizing another prot minister for preaching "works". If you don't want to view the whole thing, just go to the 3 minute mark and watch for the next minute or so to see that for prots, faith alone is all that is necessary, only the Roman Catholics are supposed to preach faith without works is dead.

Cantarella · « **Reply #9 on:** October 16, 2014, 10:27:43 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

it looks like prots are not 100% on anything - including belief in salvation via faith alone.

True, with hundreds and hundreds of man-made "denominations" promoting all kind of flawed versions of "Christianity", one never knows what the protestants believe. They can believe just about anything since they listen to their private interpretation of the Holy Scripture, over the legitimate authority, which causes all kinds of subjective errors.

Malleus · « **Reply #10 on:** October 16, 2014, 11:37:26 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Malleus
Quote from: Malleus
I guess another question would be, do 100% of Protestants believe in faith alone? I don't think so.

Yikes, meant to say, I guess the question should be.

Ok, I stand corrected I guess

No, your answer was fine anyways, but I just wanted to make that clear because I thought that's what I had written.

Stubborn · « **Reply #11 on:** October 16, 2014, 12:44:01 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Quote from: Stubborn

it looks like prots are not 100% on anything - including belief in salvation via faith alone.

True, with hundreds and hundreds of man-made "denominations" promoting all kind of flawed versions of "Christianity", one never knows what the protestants believe. They can believe just about anything since they listen to their private interpretation of the Holy Scripture, over the legitimate authority, which causes all kinds of subjective errors.

Exactly.

Prots are more divided in their beliefs than the NO is.

For example, in the video, the one prot minister without a beard is himself a divorced and remarried ex-Catholic turned prot minister. I couldn't find which variety of prot he chose to make himself, so lets say he is a "non-denominational prot."

He is a prot minister who advertises that he has read the [wrong] bible from cover to cover almost 300 times - he runs a site called "The Scriptures Alone Bible School" and believes there is no salvation outside the book.

I'm sure with a little time it would be simple enough to find out more about the prot minister with a beard, but the jist of all this is that these two are real world prots, not the imaginary prots that Catholics hallucinate about who beg forgiveness with their dying breath, receive the baptism of desire, become a member of the Church by desire and are rewarded salvation via their faith alone as the CI BODers preach.

Like the majority of prots, they know enough about the True Faith to know they want no part of it. In fact they despise it. They are outside the Church because they choose to be outside the Church.
Prots believe once saved always saved, so don't be conned into thinking there are sincere prots out there who would beg forgiveness - and get it and salvation - on their death bed.

Malleus · « **Reply #12 on:** October 16, 2014, 03:23:25 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Malleus
Quote from: Malleus
I guess another question would be, do 100% of Protestants believe in faith alone? I don't think so.

Yikes, meant to say, I guess the question should be.

Ok, I stand corrected I guess - it looks like prots are not 100% on anything - including belief in salvation via faith alone.
In this video, it seems as though there is one prot minister criticizing another prot minister for preaching "works". If you don't want to view the whole thing, just go to the 3 minute mark and watch for the next minute or so to see that for prots, faith alone is all that is necessary, only the Roman Catholics are supposed to preach faith without works is dead.

How did you find that video? It only has 3 views.

Protestantism is a detestable abomination.