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Author Topic: Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites  (Read 6455 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2013, 12:41:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    We agree any and all, without exception who die with Original Sin are deprived of the Beatific Vision.  

    What I'm trying to say is that being cleansed of Original Sin is what is essential, more so than the character you receive from water baptism.  Does this make sense?


    Saint Thomas Aquinas, the Church's principle Doctor, taught that the character of sacramental Baptism confers additional graces:

    Quote
    As stated above (a. 1, ad 2; q. 68, a. 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but aferwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Ps. 22:2, “He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment,” a gloss says: “He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism.” (Summa Theologica, IIIa q.69, a.4, ad 2)


    What's wrong with believing (or, even hoping) that individuals receive those graces which they desire, even if such a desire is implicit?


    I don't see where we disagree.  

    But if I was a non-member.  And I had the choice of obtaining the Beatific Vision without the additional graces that come with the character in water baptism or not obtaining the Beatific Vision at all the choice would be easy.  

    Being cleansed of Original Sin without the additional graces that come with the character is better than not being cleansed of Original Sin.  Agree?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Jehanne

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    Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites
    « Reply #16 on: August 06, 2013, 12:45:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Being cleansed of Original Sin without the additional graces that come with the character is better than not being cleansed of Original Sin.  Agree?


    Of course.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites
    « Reply #17 on: August 06, 2013, 12:48:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Being cleansed of Original Sin without the additional graces that come with the character is better than not being cleansed of Original Sin.  Agree?


    Of course.


    I don't think we are far apart at all.

    BTW - you got me curious on the character and I just read up on it:

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03586a.htm

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Emerentiana

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    Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites
    « Reply #18 on: August 06, 2013, 02:04:43 PM »
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    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Any man who loves God with a love of friendship or benevolence, sincerely desiring and intending to do His will and preferring to suffer anything rather than to offend Him has NOT divine supernatural charity and is NOT in the state of grace.  OR IF HE IS IN THE STATE OF GRACE HE WILL STILL SURELY BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY.  If he dies in that state, he will inevitably BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY.  And, incidentally, if he has the love of charity for God, he is OUTSIDE the true Church of Jesus Christ.


    No, this is bullshit.


    Thats EXACTLY the conclusion of the Feenyite teaching!  Very FEW souls are saved thru Baptism of Desire and Blood.

     Feenyites  take upon themselves  the  error of reinterpreting what the church has always believed, and judging those who do not have Baptism of Water.
    There is no salvation outside the Church.  Pope Pius said that souls who die must  "be united to the Church in some way".

    Judgement of these souls is reserved to God ONLY

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites
    « Reply #19 on: August 06, 2013, 02:13:46 PM »
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    Pope Pius said that souls who die must  "be united to the Church in some way"


    Pretty akward way of wording it if they absolutely have to be members.  Good post Emerentiana!

    The word is always "joined" or "attached" or "in some way".  Not "member".  They carefully word it this way for a reason.

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Stubborn

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    Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites
    « Reply #20 on: August 06, 2013, 02:57:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: Emerentiana
    Quote
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Any man who loves God with a love of friendship or benevolence, sincerely desiring and intending to do His will and preferring to suffer anything rather than to offend Him has NOT divine supernatural charity and is NOT in the state of grace.  OR IF HE IS IN THE STATE OF GRACE HE WILL STILL SURELY BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY.  If he dies in that state, he will inevitably BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY.  And, incidentally, if he has the love of charity for God, he is OUTSIDE the true Church of Jesus Christ.


    No, this is bullshit.


    Thats EXACTLY the conclusion of the Feenyite teaching!  Very FEW souls are saved thru Baptism of Desire and Blood.

     Feenyites  take upon themselves  the  error of reinterpreting what the church has always believed, and judging those who do not have Baptism of Water.
    There is no salvation outside the Church.  Pope Pius said that souls who die must  "be united to the Church in some way".

    Judgement of these souls is reserved to God ONLY



    Well Emerentiana, when the Church teaches one must receive the Sacrament in order to be welcomed into the Church - and that outside the Church there is no salvation - - - - - -then you have some yahoo slandering the sacrament all over CI claiming no need for the sacrament as long as one desires it - that should infuriate Catholics, not encourage them.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Jehanne

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    Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites
    « Reply #21 on: August 06, 2013, 04:18:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: Emerentiana
    Quote
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Any man who loves God with a love of friendship or benevolence, sincerely desiring and intending to do His will and preferring to suffer anything rather than to offend Him has NOT divine supernatural charity and is NOT in the state of grace.  OR IF HE IS IN THE STATE OF GRACE HE WILL STILL SURELY BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY.  If he dies in that state, he will inevitably BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY.  And, incidentally, if he has the love of charity for God, he is OUTSIDE the true Church of Jesus Christ.


    No, this is bullshit.


    Thats EXACTLY the conclusion of the Feenyite teaching!  Very FEW souls are saved thru Baptism of Desire and Blood.

     Feenyites  take upon themselves  the  error of reinterpreting what the church has always believed, and judging those who do not have Baptism of Water.
    There is no salvation outside the Church.  Pope Pius said that souls who die must  "be united to the Church in some way".

    Judgement of these souls is reserved to God ONLY


    The Council of Florence (while at Basel) also stated this:

    Quote
    The holy synod especially condemns and censures, in the book, the assertion which is scandalous, erroneous in the faith and offensive to the ears of the pious faithful, namely: Christ sins daily and has sinned daily from his very beginning, even though he avers that he does not understand this as of Christ our saviour, head of the church, but as referring to his members, which together with Christ the head form the one Christ, as he asserts. Also, the propositions, and ones similar to them, which the synod declares are contained in the articles condemned at the sacred council of Constance, namely the following. Not all the justified faithful are members of Christ, but only the elect, who finally will reign with Christ for ever. The members of Christ, from whom the church is constituted, are taken according to the ineffable foreknowledge of God; and the church is constituted only from those who are called according to his purpose of election. To be a member of Christ, it is not enough to be united with him in the bond of charity, some other union is needed.  Also the following...


    So, yes, I agree 100% (and, always have) that "charity alone" unites one with the Triune God, and hence, His Mystical Body, which is the Catholic Church.  But, I also agree that the following is also true:

    Quote
    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 3, Chapter 1, On God the creator of all things, ex cathedra: "Everything that God has brought into being he protects and governs by his providence, which reaches from one end of the earth to the other and orders all things well. All things are open and laid bare before His eyes, even those which will be brought about by the free activity of creatures."


    Now, some will say that the Triune God chooses not to bring sacramental Baptism to those who love Him, and perhaps, that is true, but from my perspective, such a claim is to "prove a negative," a cosmic one, in fact:

    Quote
    "As was observed above in the preceding article, the local motion of an angel can be continuous, and non-continuous. If it be continuous, the angel cannot pass from one extreme to another without passing through the mid-space; because, as is said by the Philosopher (Phys. v, text 22; vi, text 77), 'The middle is that into which a thing which is continually moved comes, before arriving at the last into which it is moved'; because the order of first and last in continuous movement, is according to the order of the first and last in magnitude, as he says (Phys. iv, text 99). But if an angel's movement be not continuous, it is possible for him to pass from one extreme to another without going through the middle..." (Summa Theologica, Ia, q.53, a. 2)

    "This objection is based on continuous time. But the same time of an angel's movement can be non-continuous. So an angel can be in one place in one instant, and in another place in the next instant, without any time intervening. If the time of the angel's movement be continuous, he is changed through infinite places throughout the whole time which precedes the last 'now'; as was already shown (a. 2). Nevertheless he is partly in one of the continuous places, and partly in another, not because his substance is susceptible of parts, but because his power is applied to a part of the first place and to a part of the second, as was said above (a. 2)." (Summa Theologica, Ia, q.53, a.3, ad 3)

    "Since the order of Divine Providence disposes that lower things be subject to the actions of higher, as explained above (q. 109, a. 2); as the inferior angels are enlightened by the superior, so men, who are inferior to the angels, are enlightened by them." (Summa Theologica, Ia, q.111, a.1)

    "But it must be observed that as God did not bind His power to the sacraments, so as to be unable to bestow the sacramental effect without conferring the sacrament; so neither did He bind His power to the ministers of the Church so as to be unable to give angels power to administer the sacraments. And since good angels are messengers of truth; if any sacramental rite were performed by good angels, it should be considered valid, because it ought to be evident that this is being done by the will of God: for instance, certain churches are said to have been consecrated by the ministry of the angels. But if demons, who are 'lying spirits,' were to perform a sacramental rite, it should be pronounced as invalid." (Summa Theologica, IIIa, q.64, a.7)

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites
    « Reply #22 on: August 06, 2013, 04:42:15 PM »
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  • For your enjoyment!   :reading:



    [/URL][/img]





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    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites
    « Reply #23 on: August 06, 2013, 04:44:21 PM »
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  • "then you have some yahoo slandering the sacrament all over CI claiming no need for the sacrament as long as one desires it - that should infuriate Catholics, not encourage them. "

    Yes, Stubborn but no one is saying that!
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline Jehanne

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    Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites
    « Reply #24 on: August 06, 2013, 05:12:06 PM »
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  • Problem Myrna, is that the Sovereign Pontiff, not you, decides who is (and is not) in communion with Catholic Church.  I know that you are a sede, and that's fine, but as a sede, you have no authority, no judge, no final arbiter of what is true and what is not, what is to be at least tolerated and what is to be condemned, and what is to be taught.  You act like Father Feeney was condemned; he wasn't.  He was disobedient, like you, in that he refused to accept what he felt was an unlawful command (his summons to Rome, which, in my opinion, he should have obeyed), but unlike you, he accepted the final authority of the Roman Pontiff to bind the universal Church on matters pertaining to the Deposit of Faith, the Revelation of the Triune God to man.  You have no authority, and hence, you have no Church, no Magisterium which can settle any of your disputes, whatever they may be.  All that you can appeal to are legitimate Catholic theologians, who have long since died, none of whom ever attached a de fide note to the idea that any Catholic must believe that there are souls in Paradise, since the Day of Pentecost, who lack the character of sacramental Baptism.

    As with Peter Abelard's rejection of the torments of eternal Hell for infants who died without sacramental Baptism, which went against 600 years of undisputed teaching of that of Saint Augustine in the theological schools of the West, so, too, Father Feeney paved some new ground, in recognizing the Sovereignty of the One and Triune God in bringing Baptism to each and every one of His Elect, if such, indeed, is God's will.  No Pope since Father Feeney's time has ever condemned him for what he wrote, including, Pope Pius XII, and all of his successors.  If they have not condemned him, why you?  Or, anyone else, for that matter?

    But, then again, you have no Magisterium, do you?  And, likely, no Holy Orders and no Eucharist, either.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites
    « Reply #25 on: August 06, 2013, 05:28:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    "then you have some yahoo slandering the sacrament all over CI claiming no need for the sacrament as long as one desires it - that should infuriate Catholics, not encourage them. "

    Yes, Stubborn but no one is saying that!


    There is only one Church whose duty it is to defend the Sacraments, I for one see enough sacrilege in the world without coming to the best Catholic site on the web and reading some self proclaimed judge of BOD show a blatant disregard toward the most necessary Sacrament of them all, by posting that baptism is a waste of time in 8 different places. . . . . . .THAT'S not Catholic at all and whoever agrees with him will get the end they deserve as well.

    I am sick of reading how he disregards the obvious contradiction between water / desire statements in order that he can demonstrate the necessity to reject the necessity of the sacrament and attempt to get others to do the same.

    Mark my words, Our Lord will only put up with that blatant disregard for the Sacrament He instituted for so long before LOT darkens his own intellect -  as history has shown the same thing has happen to others who belittle the Sacraments which Our Lord gave to the Church to use, safeguard and defend - not disregard, joke about and belittle.


     





    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites
    « Reply #26 on: August 06, 2013, 06:16:57 PM »
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  • No one is saying..."by posting that baptism is a waste of time in 8 different places"  You are mistaken, re-read here and prove it!   You can't because no one posted " that baptism is a waste of time in 8 different places"

    We agree, that Baptism is the most important sacrament, that is why God provided BOD, just in case someone who has fulfilled all the requirements dies before the MOST IMPORTANT SACRAMENT is administered.  

    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites
    « Reply #27 on: August 06, 2013, 09:11:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    No one is saying..."by posting that baptism is a waste of time in 8 different places"  You are mistaken, re-read here and prove it!   You can't because no one posted " that baptism is a waste of time in 8 different places"




    Our Lord instituted the Sacrament - that fact makes it holy and necessary. He did not institute it to be the butt of jokes or to be shown disrespect - - or do you honestly think posting over and over again by someone who claims to be Catholic that the Sacrament God instituted is unnecessary for anyone under any circuмstance, actually pleases God?

    As I already said, belittling the Sacrament as he does is something that is welcomed on NO forums like CAF and FE because they do not believe in it's necessity for all men either. That is actually more the way Protestants think - "who needs a priest or sacraments when you can go directly to Jesus"?


    Quote from: MyrnaM

    We agree, that Baptism is the most important sacrament, that is why God provided BOD, just in case someone who has fulfilled all the requirements dies before the MOST IMPORTANT SACRAMENT is administered.  





    And you do not understand why BOD conflicts, not only with defined dogma, it also conflicts with the Doctrine of Divine Providence.

    God will provide the actual Sacrament which He instituted for us before we die if we sincerely desire it no matter what or how sudden and impossible the circuмstances may be. He absolutely and positively will not let anyone die without the sacrament if they sincerely desire it - *that* is what the doctrine of Divine Providence teaches.

    FWIW in a nutshell, when I went in a month or so ago for emergency bypass surgery, all the priests were gone out of state / country, we were told by our priest a week earlier that we would be without a priest for like 4 days ~ "so don't look for a priest till we return" is what we were told.

    Well, one phone call to the rectory and I had a priest come to the hospital to give me last rites immediately - I mean immediately.
    A  priest just happened to be in my area, but he was not supposed to be anywhere near me, I mean he had no business being within 500 miles of me - and not only that, this priest is one that I knew from a few years ago when I lived out of state so my comfort level went through the roof soon as I found out that this priest was coming - he is not only one of the most awesome priests I know, he even despises the NO more than me. I was flabbergasted to say the least when I found out he was on his way to me after knowing that if I was going to have the last rites at all, that I would have to have help and search asap for a trad priest where there are none. Far as I knew, I had zero hope of getting a trad priest that night (July 4th).

    There is more to the story but the jist is, *THAT* is how God Provides for us. THAT is Divine Providence at work. THAT is how God works. God not only sent me a priest, He sent me one of the best! - like nuthin'!
    If God, who alone did that for me, would do that for one so unworthy as I am, I will tell you that no one on earth will ever convince me that He would allow anyone, I mean not anyone who sincerely desires the Sacrament of Baptism to die before they are able to receive it no matter what the circuмstances may be.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites
    « Reply #28 on: August 06, 2013, 09:20:05 PM »
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  • Quote

     Well, one phone call to the rectory and I had a priest come to the hospital to give me last rites immediately - I mean immediately.
     A  priest just happened to be in my area, but he was not supposed to be anywhere near me, I mean he had no business being within 500 miles of me - and not only that, this priest is one that I knew from a few years ago when I lived out of state so my comfort level went through the roof soon as I found out that this priest was coming - he is not only one of the most awesome priests I know, he even despises the NO more than me. I was flabbergasted to say the least when I found out he was on his way to me after knowing that if I was going to have the last rites at all, that I would have to have help and search asap for a trad priest where there are none. Far as I knew, I had zero hope of getting a trad priest that night (July 4th).

     There is more to the story but the jist is, *THAT* is how God Provides for us. THAT is Divine Providence at work. THAT is how God works. God not only sent me a priest, He sent me one of the best! - like nuthin'!
     If God, who alone did that for me, would do that for one so unworthy as I am, I will tell you that no one on earth will ever convince me that He would allow anyone, I mean not anyone who sincerely desires the Sacrament of Baptism to die before they are able to receive it no matter what the circuмstances may be.


    I believe every word you posted and know that God does provide.  He knows His own.  God bless you and I sincerely am happy for you, that you had that special experience and that you are healthy today.    :pray:

    However, since I posted along with others that the Church does teach Baptism of Desire, who am I to deny it.   With the grace of God, I will not deny His teachings.  


    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline parentsfortruth

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    Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites
    « Reply #29 on: August 06, 2013, 09:52:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: Emerentiana
    Quote
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Any man who loves God with a love of friendship or benevolence, sincerely desiring and intending to do His will and preferring to suffer anything rather than to offend Him has NOT divine supernatural charity and is NOT in the state of grace.  OR IF HE IS IN THE STATE OF GRACE HE WILL STILL SURELY BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY.  If he dies in that state, he will inevitably BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY.  And, incidentally, if he has the love of charity for God, he is OUTSIDE the true Church of Jesus Christ.


    No, this is bullshit.


    Thats EXACTLY the conclusion of the Feenyite teaching!  Very FEW souls are saved thru Baptism of Desire and Blood.

     Feenyites  take upon themselves  the  error of reinterpreting what the church has always believed, and judging those who do not have Baptism of Water.
    There is no salvation outside the Church.  Pope Pius said that souls who die must  "be united to the Church in some way".

    Judgement of these souls is reserved to God ONLY


    But the judgment of all souls at the particular judgment is up to God. Let's just leave it to Him to do His job!
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,