Author Topic: Pius IX Forgot to Check with the Feeneyites (Read 6449 times)

Lover of Truth · « **on:** August 05, 2013, 05:59:26 PM »

P. Pius IX Solemn Allocution
Singulari Quadam
December 9, 1854

It is to be held of faith that none can be saved outside the Apostolic Roman Church . . . but nevertheless it is equally certain that those who are ignorant of the true religion, if that ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty in the matter in the eyes of the Lord.
(Denzinger 1641,ff.)

P. Pius IX Encyclical
QUANTO CONFICIAMUR
August 10, 1863

We all know that those who are invincibly ignorant of our religion and who nevertheless lead an honest and upright life, can, under the influence of divine light and divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who knows and sees the mind, the heart, the thoughts, and the dispositions of every man, cannot in His infinite bounty and clemency permit any one to suffer eternal punishment who is not guilty through his own fault."
(Denzinger 1677)

Jehanne · « **Reply #1 on:** August 05, 2013, 06:05:15 PM »

Just answer me this one question:

Quote

Is is de fide definita or de fide ecclesiastica that there are souls in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism after such became obligatory on the Day of Pentacost?

"Yes" or "no", if you please. If you answer "yes," please give the appropriate Denzginer (new or old numbers) citations. If you answer "no," please indicate a level of "theological certainty" to the proposition that there are souls in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism:

Quote

Theological certainty   Description
1.   De fide   Divine revelations with the highest degree of certainty, considered Divine revelation (and infallibly asserted)
2.   Fides ecclesiastica   Church teachings, which have been definitively decided on by the Magisterium in an infallible manner
3.   Sententia fidei proxima   Church teachings, which are generally accepted as divine revelation but not defined as such by the magisterium
4.   Sententia certa   Church teachings which the Magisterium clearly decided for, albeit without claiming infallibility
5.   Sententia communis   Teachings which are popular but within the free range of theological research
6.   Sententia probabilis   Teachings with low degree of certainty
7.   Sententia bene fundata   A well-reasoned teaching which does, however, not arise to being called probable
8.   Opinio tolerata   Opinions tolerated, but discouraged, within the Catholic Church

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_dogma

bowler · « **Reply #2 on:** August 05, 2013, 07:54:23 PM »

Lover of truth has been showed like 100 times that those quotes from Pius IX do not say what he wants them to say, and moreover, they are fallible opinions. The fact that he keeps repeating it shows what little evidence he has.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #3 on:** August 06, 2013, 07:11:13 AM »

Quote from: bowler

Lover of truth has been showed like 100 times that those quotes from Pius IX do not say what he wants them to say, and moreover, they are fallible opinions. The fact that he keeps repeating it shows what little evidence he has.

Yes. We all know that Pius IX had to either be a heretic, didn't mean what he said or didn't say what he meant. I understand now.

SJB · « **Reply #4 on:** August 06, 2013, 07:42:49 AM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Just answer me this one question:

Quote
Is is de fide definita or de fide ecclesiastica that there are souls in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism after such became obligatory on the Day of Pentacost?

"Yes" or "no", if you please. If you answer "yes," please give the appropriate Denzginer (new or old numbers) citations. If you answer "no," please indicate a level of "theological certainty" to the proposition that there are souls in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism:

Quote
Theological certainty   Description
1.   De fide   Divine revelations with the highest degree of certainty, considered Divine revelation (and infallibly asserted)
2.   Fides ecclesiastica   Church teachings, which have been definitively decided on by the Magisterium in an infallible manner
3.   Sententia fidei proxima   Church teachings, which are generally accepted as divine revelation but not defined as such by the magisterium
4.   Sententia certa   Church teachings which the Magisterium clearly decided for, albeit without claiming infallibility
5.   Sententia communis   Teachings which are popular but within the free range of theological research
6.   Sententia probabilis   Teachings with low degree of certainty
7.   Sententia bene fundata   A well-reasoned teaching which does, however, not arise to being called probable
8.   Opinio tolerata   Opinions tolerated, but discouraged, within the Catholic Church

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_dogma

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #5 on:** August 06, 2013, 11:00:59 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Jehanne
Just answer me this one question:

Quote
Is is de fide definita or de fide ecclesiastica that there are souls in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism after such became obligatory on the Day of Pentacost?

"Yes" or "no", if you please. If you answer "yes," please give the appropriate Denzginer (new or old numbers) citations. If you answer "no," please indicate a level of "theological certainty" to the proposition that there are souls in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism:

Quote
Theological certainty   Description
1.   De fide   Divine revelations with the highest degree of certainty, considered Divine revelation (and infallibly asserted)
2.   Fides ecclesiastica   Church teachings, which have been definitively decided on by the Magisterium in an infallible manner
3.   Sententia fidei proxima   Church teachings, which are generally accepted as divine revelation but not defined as such by the magisterium
4.   Sententia certa   Church teachings which the Magisterium clearly decided for, albeit without claiming infallibility
5.   Sententia communis   Teachings which are popular but within the free range of theological research
6.   Sententia probabilis   Teachings with low degree of certainty
7.   Sententia bene fundata   A well-reasoned teaching which does, however, not arise to being called probable
8.   Opinio tolerata   Opinions tolerated, but discouraged, within the Catholic Church

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_dogma

It would be in category (a) or (b) at the very least. It is a doctrine of the Church. It has been taught "always and everywhere" by the Church and in an authoritative and infallible manner by Popes in encyclicals. The Saints and Doctors, who were very aware of the EENS dogma also taught it. Saint Alphonsis did not call it de fide loosely or in an unguarded moment. He would not allow such a strong and definitive statement to be published as he knew what he published carried great weight and that he would be answerable to God for "willy nilly" calling something de fide that was not.

No my question to you Jehanne,

Does an infallible doctrine need to be solemnly proclaimed in order to be infallible?

Yes or no? You don't need to quote anything as I know the answer but just want to see if you do. I ask this very respectfully as I respect you as a civil poster on the other side of the issue.

Jehanne · « **Reply #6 on:** August 06, 2013, 11:45:52 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Jehanne
Just answer me this one question:

Quote
Is is de fide definita or de fide ecclesiastica that there are souls in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism after such became obligatory on the Day of Pentacost?

"Yes" or "no", if you please. If you answer "yes," please give the appropriate Denzginer (new or old numbers) citations. If you answer "no," please indicate a level of "theological certainty" to the proposition that there are souls in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism:

Quote
Theological certainty   Description
1.   De fide   Divine revelations with the highest degree of certainty, considered Divine revelation (and infallibly asserted)
2.   Fides ecclesiastica   Church teachings, which have been definitively decided on by the Magisterium in an infallible manner
3.   Sententia fidei proxima   Church teachings, which are generally accepted as divine revelation but not defined as such by the magisterium
4.   Sententia certa   Church teachings which the Magisterium clearly decided for, albeit without claiming infallibility
5.   Sententia communis   Teachings which are popular but within the free range of theological research
6.   Sententia probabilis   Teachings with low degree of certainty
7.   Sententia bene fundata   A well-reasoned teaching which does, however, not arise to being called probable
8.   Opinio tolerata   Opinions tolerated, but discouraged, within the Catholic Church

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_dogma

It would be in category (a) or (b) at the very least.

Then you should be able to provide the Dz. reference, so, please, provide it. Give the reference where it is de fide that we must believe that there are souls in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism, having ended their lives after the Day of Pentecost.

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Does an infallible doctrine need to be solemnly proclaimed in order to be infallible?

No, but such still needs to be taught, and no one ever taught that there are souls in Paradise, since the Day of Pentacost, who lack the character of sacramental Baptism. Consider this hypothetical canon:

Quote

If anyone says that there are no souls in Paradise who, since the Day of Pentecost, have lacked the character of Baptism, let him be anathema.

"Short and sweet, and to the point."

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #7 on:** August 06, 2013, 11:46:06 AM »

Fenton commenting on Singulari quadam by Pius IX:

If we are to understand this teaching, we must not allow ourselves to fail to realize that there is absolutely no middle ground between the state of supernatural sanctifying grace and the state of sin or aversion from God. Any man who loves God with a love of friendship or benevolence, sincerely desiring and intending to do His will and preferring to suffer anything rather than to offend Him has divine supernatural charity and is in the state of grace. If he dies in that state, he will inevitably attain to the Beatific Vision. And, incidentally, if he has the love of charity for God, he is “within” the true Church of Jesus Christ, at least by sincere (although perhaps merely implicit) intention and desire.

But the feeneyite would say:

Any man who loves God with a love of friendship or benevolence, sincerely desiring and intending to do His will and preferring to suffer anything rather than to offend Him has NOT divine supernatural charity and is NOT in the state of grace. OR IF HE IS IN THE STATE OF GRACE HE WILL STILL SURELY BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. If he dies in that state, he will inevitably BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. And, incidentally, if he has the love of charity for God, he is OUTSIDE the true Church of Jesus Christ.

The top paragraph is the Catholic teaching.

The bottom paragraph is the Feeneyite teaching.

Jehanne · « **Reply #8 on:** August 06, 2013, 11:50:01 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Any man who loves God with a love of friendship or benevolence, sincerely desiring and intending to do His will and preferring to suffer anything rather than to offend Him has NOT divine supernatural charity and is NOT in the state of grace. OR IF HE IS IN THE STATE OF GRACE HE WILL STILL SURELY BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. If he dies in that state, he will inevitably BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. And, incidentally, if he has the love of charity for God, he is OUTSIDE the true Church of Jesus Christ.

No, this is bullshit.

SJB · « **Reply #9 on:** August 06, 2013, 11:52:42 AM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Any man who loves God with a love of friendship or benevolence, sincerely desiring and intending to do His will and preferring to suffer anything rather than to offend Him has NOT divine supernatural charity and is NOT in the state of grace. OR IF HE IS IN THE STATE OF GRACE HE WILL STILL SURELY BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. If he dies in that state, he will inevitably BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. And, incidentally, if he has the love of charity for God, he is OUTSIDE the true Church of Jesus Christ.

No, this is bullshit.

So you agree with Fenton?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #10 on:** August 06, 2013, 12:00:48 PM »

Quote

If we are to understand this teaching, we must not allow ourselves to fail to realize that there is absolutely no middle ground between the state of supernatural sanctifying grace and the state of sin or aversion from God. Any man who loves God with a love of friendship or benevolence, sincerely desiring and intending to do His will and preferring to suffer anything rather than to offend Him has divine supernatural charity and is in the state of grace. If he dies in that state, he will inevitably attain to the Beatific Vision. And, incidentally, if he has the love of charity for God, he is “within” the true Church of Jesus Christ, at least by sincere (although perhaps merely implicit) intention and desire.

Fenton

Do you agree with this Jehanne. I have a good impression of you. You are not like some other Feeneyites I have encountered. I'm convinced that you are of good will as are many Feeneyites.

You have admitted that non-members can be saved within the Church, though some Feeneyites would disagree with you.

So for you, it all comes down to the water right?

Do you admit that it is God Who cleanses the soul of Original Sin and not the water?

Jehanne · « **Reply #11 on:** August 06, 2013, 12:03:16 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Any man who loves God with a love of friendship or benevolence, sincerely desiring and intending to do His will and preferring to suffer anything rather than to offend Him has NOT divine supernatural charity and is NOT in the state of grace. OR IF HE IS IN THE STATE OF GRACE HE WILL STILL SURELY BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. If he dies in that state, he will inevitably BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. And, incidentally, if he has the love of charity for God, he is OUTSIDE the true Church of Jesus Christ.

No, this is bullshit.
So you agree with Fenton?

I believe that what he taught is at least possible; once again, to me, this is all in the area of theological opinion. With respect to there being souls in Paradise who, since the Day of Pentecost, lack the character of Baptism, I do not know. I believe that it is at least possible for the omnipotent One and Triune God to provide the character of sacramental Baptism to each and every single one of His Elect, no exceptions whatsoever; however, I admit that I do not know for sure.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #12 on:** August 06, 2013, 12:10:15 PM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: Lover of Truth
Any man who loves God with a love of friendship or benevolence, sincerely desiring and intending to do His will and preferring to suffer anything rather than to offend Him has NOT divine supernatural charity and is NOT in the state of grace. OR IF HE IS IN THE STATE OF GRACE HE WILL STILL SURELY BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. If he dies in that state, he will inevitably BURN IN HELL FOR ETERNITY. And, incidentally, if he has the love of charity for God, he is OUTSIDE the true Church of Jesus Christ.

No, this is bullshit.
So you agree with Fenton?

I believe that what he taught is at least possible; once again, to me, this is all in the area of theological opinion. With respect to there being souls in Paradise who, since the Day of Pentecost, lack the character of Baptism, I do not know. I believe that it is at least possible for the omnipotent One and Triune God to provide the character of sacramental Baptism to each and every single one of His Elect, no exceptions whatsoever; however, I admit that I do not know for sure.

Can you explain to me why the character is so important? We also get a character in Confirmation and those ordained get one I believe. But we agree neither of those characters are necessary for salvation. Why is the character one gets from water baptism "essential without exception". I'm not quoting you but putting in quotes what I believe you have expressed or believed until now.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #13 on:** August 06, 2013, 12:12:52 PM »

We agree any and all, without exception who die with Original Sin are deprived of the Beatific Vision.

What I'm trying to say is that being cleansed of Original Sin is what is essential, more so than the character you receive from water baptism. Does this make sense?

Jehanne · « **Reply #14 on:** August 06, 2013, 12:28:07 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

We agree any and all, without exception who die with Original Sin are deprived of the Beatific Vision.

What I'm trying to say is that being cleansed of Original Sin is what is essential, more so than the character you receive from water baptism. Does this make sense?

Saint Thomas Aquinas, the Church's principle Doctor, taught that the character of sacramental Baptism confers additional graces:

Quote

As stated above (a. 1, ad 2; q. 68, a. 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but aferwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Ps. 22:2, “He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment,” a gloss says: “He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism.” (Summa Theologica, IIIa q.69, a.4, ad 2)

What's wrong with believing (or, even hoping) that individuals receive those graces which they desire, even if such a desire is implicit?