Author Topic: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.  (Read 3621 times)

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Offline DZ PLEASE

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Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2017, 01:24:39 PM »
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  • Too bad there aren't any medically verified cases of people coming back from the dead. Then again, that might be taken as "proof" for all sorts of Hasty Puddin'
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #61 on: August 21, 2017, 01:25:59 PM »
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  • Too bad there aren't any medically verified cases of people coming back from the dead. Then again, that might be taken as "proof" for all sorts of Hasty Puddin'
    Do you deny that a person is judged at the moment of death?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #62 on: August 21, 2017, 01:43:59 PM »
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  • Has apparently forgotten our last little "chat", only reinforced by his double-standard of asking much, yet beholden, apparently not even to God almighty, to none to answer. Seems proper company for Myth.
    Do you deny that a person is judged at the moment of death?
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #63 on: August 21, 2017, 01:58:49 PM »
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  • Has apparently forgotten our last little "chat", only reinforced by his double-standard of asking much, yet beholden, apparently not even to God almighty, to none to answer. Seems proper company for Myth.
    If you were given the choice of martyrdom before baptism or denying Christ so you could get baptized which would you chose?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #64 on: August 23, 2017, 09:28:15 AM »
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  • No takers on the following question:

    If you were given the choice of martyrdom before baptism or denying Christ so you could get baptized which would you chose?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #65 on: August 23, 2017, 10:47:56 AM »
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  • No takers on the following question:

    If you were given the choice of martyrdom before baptism or denying Christ so you could get baptized which would you chose?

    Both choices reveal your unbelief of divine providence and God's Omniscience and Omnipotence. Your unbelief is the root of your obsession with the subject of salvation of 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #66 on: August 23, 2017, 10:56:08 AM »
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  • Both choices reveal your unbelief of divine providence and God's Omniscience and Omnipotence. Your unbelief is the root of your obsession with the subject of salvation of
    Your choosing not to answer is even more revealing.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #67 on: August 23, 2017, 11:08:48 AM »
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  • .
    I'm not a Latin reader, so I don't know anything about "mox"; a few dictionaries I've consulted give the primary meaning as being soon in the respect of being next in time or position (which makes perfect sense, given the dogma-- it's distinguishable from the "soon" that you say to a five year old who asks if you're there yet).  But shouldn't the dogma speak for itself, rather than having us have to rely on dictionaries to understand it?  Dictionaries aren't infallible.  If the Church teaches primarily-- or only-- through solemn definitions, then it follows that she, being capable and divinely equipped to execute her mission, speaks clearly in solemn definitions.  Right?  If you're finding an ambiguity of language, that's your problem.
    .
    So, we're back to a problem of methodology.  Now, for those of us whose methodology allows and encourages us to learn from the Church's ordinary teaching, we find out that the usual translation is immediately simply because the doctrine is that the particular judgment occurs immediately after death, with the sending to Heaven/Purgatory or Hell immediately or instantaneously to the judgment (Parente, 1953).  We might, in a manner of speaking, say that such souls do not ascend or descend immediately, but only because they must be judged "first."  Not because they can be preserved in a stasis or slumber pending judgment and punishment or reward.
    .
    Interestingly enough, GJC's contention (which you are repeating here) of some stasis or slumber is positively condemned; it's not just a matter of being very difficult to reconcile with Benedictus Deus or any of the other creeds that reinforce the immediacy of Heaven or Hell after death, but "the soul's slumber" is an idea that was tossed around and already condemned (McHugh, 1910).  
    .
    So, you see?  I am "learning from man." :D 
    .
    I agree that you don't need these pious stories as proof of your conclusion.  So stop defending them.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #68 on: August 23, 2017, 11:48:23 AM »
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  • I am not finding ambiguity, only misleading translation, at least try to be accurate. If "mox" means soon, then your interpretation that the soul goes, at the moment of brain death, to it's final place, may be wrong. We do not know how long or what happens between the point where we say "hey...he's dead" and the point of no return. We do KNOW that there is no salvation for those not Sacramentally Baptized. So, if these stories are true there is no conflict between Benedictus Deus and these stories being evidence of the necessity of water Baptism.

    Also, am I to assume that you have given up the salvation of unbaptized "martyrs" since you didn't address it. Also, why are you even reading these Dogmas? You only refer to men for further interpretation.
    But to defend your heresy you are going to great lengths depending on extraordinary means as the saving norm.  Having one come back to life just so he can get baptized.  Not that complicated.  

    Do you understand the difference between a relative necessity of means and an absolute or intrinsic necessity of means?  The difference between the necessity of water and the necessity of faith for salvation to be possible?  Say you do.   
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #69 on: August 23, 2017, 12:10:45 PM »
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  • Your choosing not to answer is even more revealing.  
    No your question is moronic, only a person that does not believe in divine providence would ask such a puerile question.
    Your unbelief is the cause of your illness.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #70 on: August 23, 2017, 12:12:16 PM »
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  • No your question is moronic, only a person that does not believe in divine providence would ask such a puerile question.
    Your unbelief is the cause of your illness.
    My question puts your heresy in the proper light and leaves you crying like a baby.   :baby:
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #71 on: August 23, 2017, 12:16:26 PM »
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  • 1. Who is ceding that there is such a thing as pre-baptismal martyrdom?
     1. Danger of equivocation re: "martyr",  no?

    There are "martyrs" for "Manchester United" for cryijng out loud.
    Both choices reveal your unbelief of divine providence and God's Omniscience and Omnipotence. Your unbelief is the root of your obsession with the subject of salvation of
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #72 on: August 23, 2017, 12:24:26 PM »
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  • 1. Who is ceding that there is such a thing as pre-baptismal martyrdom?
     1. Danger of equivocation re: "martyr",  no?

    There are "martyrs" for "Manchester United" for cryijng out loud.
    The Catholic Church.  Bust free from the heresy man and join the Catholic theologians, Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes for Heaven's sake.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #73 on: August 23, 2017, 12:25:24 PM »
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  • Do you understand the definition of the word "necessary". The definition itself means absolute or no other means. The word relative implies something that is general but not always. This would change the meaning of the definition to mean something it does not say. We all know that it is not lawful to change the intended meaning of a Dogma.
    Please tell me you know what necessary means.
    You obviously don't get it.  I'll pray you somehow manage to save your soul and avoid speaking on an issue you know nothing about.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #74 on: August 23, 2017, 12:29:15 PM »
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  • Bet there's plenty of "rantin' room" on the doors of Wittenburg for all these feces theses…
    The Catholic Church.  Bust free from the heresy man and join the Catholic theologians, Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes for Heaven's sake. 
    "Lord, have mercy".

     

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