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Author Topic: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.  (Read 16482 times)

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Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2017, 07:44:22 PM »
Strange how all these pious stories are considered infallible, but the stories that tell a different slant are not worth the words printed since they are "not infallible" as the Benedict Center or Diamond Bros. see it.  

:facepalm:
Poor Myrna just doesn't get or doesn't want to.  

Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2017, 08:27:32 AM »
It is quite obvious that according to the Providence of God these individuals were to be saved, and though a sleep, not judged.
And clear writing on the wall for those who carelessly follow those modernist bishops and priests that claim that spiritual rebirth can occur without the sacrament of Baptism.
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To say that the souls of those in mortal sin do not descend immediately to Hell when they die is a direct contradiction of Benedictus Deus, the papal definition that settled the controversy over the general judgment (regarding which John XXII is often slandered as a heretic).  When you die, you go where you're going to go.  That could be purgatory, but that's only a round-about way of going to Heaven.  After death we go to Heaven or Hell.  There is no third place.  Not since the Resurrection
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So, if:
.

  • Justification is radically, absolutely, and ontologically impossible without the sacrament of baptism
  • Someone dies without receiving the sacrament of baptism
  • They descend immediately to Hell
  • And cannot be resurrected to return to Heaven, since the punishments of Hell are eternal.
.
So, these stories are either false, or they prove BoD.  They can prove BoD since a person could be brought back-- at least as a vision-- from Heaven to return to earth.  But even this would not amount to a real baptism of water, since the resurrection of the body does not occur until after the general judgment, which does not occur until after the end of the world.  Which means that any such persons being "resurrected" wouldn't really be resurrected the same way that (e.g.) Lazarus was resurrected. 


Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2017, 08:48:36 AM »
.
To say that the souls of those in mortal sin do not descend immediately to Hell when they die is a direct contradiction of Benedictus Deus, the papal definition that settled the controversy over the general judgment (regarding which John XXII is often slandered as a heretic).  When you die, you go where you're going to go.  That could be purgatory, but that's only a round-about way of going to Heaven.  After death we go to Heaven or Hell.  There is no third place.  Not since the Resurrection
.
So, if:
.

  • Justification is radically, absolutely, and ontologically impossible without the sacrament of baptism
  • Someone dies without receiving the sacrament of baptism
  • They descend immediately to Hell
  • And cannot be resurrected to return to Heaven, since the punishments of Hell are eternal.
.
So, these stories are either false, or they prove BoD.  They can prove BoD since a person could be brought back-- at least as a vision-- from Heaven to return to earth.  But even this would not amount to a real baptism of water, since the resurrection of the body does not occur until after the general judgment, which does not occur until after the end of the world.  Which means that any such persons being "resurrected" wouldn't really be resurrected the same way that (e.g.) Lazarus was resurrected.
1. Are you equating the case of Lazarus with those as of the final (presuming that there are and/or have been) resurrection?

(note: not granting that pious stories, private revelations etc. are, at least directly, proper matter for Theology, Natural or otherwise)

Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2017, 08:57:39 AM »
Things work differently from the Old Covenant to the New.
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There is a reason that every instance of "true" resurrection-- i.e., the return of the soul and the body united to earth-- occurs prior to THE Resurrection (Christ's Resurrection, that is).  Prior to that time, the gates of Heaven were shut, and there really was a "third place" of sorts that was not purgatory, but the limbo of the fathers, from where people could be truly resurrected.
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That is what happened with Lazarus.  
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That is also what happens in the Book of Ezechiel, which is highly instructive as a matter of metaphysics to read the account of Ezechiel raising up the army of Israelites from bones.  It is a very illuminating and poignant testament to Catholic metaphysics as described by the likes of St. Thomas.  Which is neither here nor there in terms of direct applicability to the case at hand, but which serve as a reminder that when we talk about suspensions of the laws of nature for the production of some miracle or another, there is still an order by which these things occur.  Read Ezichiel and see how very carefully the scriptures describe the chronology of exactly how the dead are raised, all the while considering what we know about Catholic metaphysics and the relationship between soul and body, and so on.  

Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2017, 09:09:57 AM »
Every time I forget the folly of discourse with those who don't answer that asked, esp. something as simple as a y/n question with a simple, direct and IMMEDIATE y/n, I inevitably regret it.

Take care,

out.
Things work differently from the Old Covenant to the New.
.
There is a reason that every instance of "true" resurrection-- i.e., the return of the soul and the body united to earth-- occurs prior to THE Resurrection (Christ's Resurrection, that is).  Prior to that time, the gates of Heaven were shut, and there really was a "third place" of sorts that was not purgatory, but the limbo of the fathers, from where people could be truly resurrected.
.
That is what happened with Lazarus. 
.
That is also what happens in the Book of Ezechiel, which is highly instructive as a matter of metaphysics to read the account of Ezechiel raising up the army of Israelites from bones.  It is a very illuminating and poignant testament to Catholic metaphysics as described by the likes of St. Thomas.  Which is neither here nor there in terms of direct applicability to the case at hand, but which serve as a reminder that when we talk about suspensions of the laws of nature for the production of some miracle or another, there is still an order by which these things occur.  Read Ezichiel and see how very carefully the scriptures describe the chronology of exactly how the dead are raised, all the while considering what we know about Catholic metaphysics and the relationship between soul and body, and so on.