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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => The Feeneyism Ghetto => Topic started by: Merry on August 16, 2017, 07:58:08 PM

Title: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Merry on August 16, 2017, 07:58:08 PM
St. Vincent Ferrer –
There was a rich Jєω of Andalusia, named Abraham, who began to leave a church in anger while Vincent was preach-ing. The Jєω did not like what he was hearing. As some peo¬ple at the door opposed his passing through, St. Vincent cried out: "Let him go! Come away all of you at once, and leave the passage free!" The people did as he ordered, and at the instant the Jєω left, part of the porch structure fell on him and crushed him to death. Then the saint rose from his chair and went to the body. He knelt there in prayer. Abraham came to life, and his first words were: "The religion of the Jєωs is not the true faith. The True Faith is that of the Christians."
 
 In memory of this event the Jєω was baptized Elias (in honor of the prophet who had raised the boy from the dead). The new convert established a pious foundation in the church of the "accident" and the miracle. Bishop Peter Ranzano's account was used for this version of the miracle.
 
St. Patrick –
In the country of Neyll, a King Echu allowed St. Patrick to receive his beloved daughter Cynnia as a nun, though he bewailed the fact that his royal line would thereby end without issue.  The king exacted a promise from Patrick not to insist that he be baptized, yet to promise him the heavenly kingdom.  Patrick agreed, and left the matter in the hands of God.

Sometime later King Echu lay dying.  He sent a messenger to St. Patrick to tell him he desired Baptism and the heavenly kingdom.  To those around him the King gave an order that he not be buried until Patrick came.  Patrick, then in the monastery of Saballum, two days' journey away, knew of the situation through the Holy Spirit before the messenger even arrived.  He left to go to the King, but arrived to find Echu dead.

St. Patrick revived the King, instructed him, and baptized him.  He asked Echu to relate what he had seen of the joys of the just and the pains of the wicked, so that his account could be used for the proving of Patrick's preaching.  Echu told of many other-world wonders and of how, in the heavenly country, he had seen the place that Patrick promised him.  But the King could not enter in because he was unbaptized.

Then St. Patrick asked Echu if he would rather live longer in this world, or go to the place prepared for him in the heavenly kingdom.  The King answered that all the world had was emptiest smoke compared to the celestial joys.  Then having received the Eucharist, he fell asleep in the Lord.
 
St. Joan of Arc prays and brings a dead baby back to life so that it might be baptized. -Baby said to have been dead for 3 days
 In the Spring of 1430, Joan had just arrived in Lagny-sur-Marne, France, where she was to lead the French forces there against the English. It was there, in the midst of war, that the miracle occurred.
 
 According to her own testimony, she was called upon to join some other young women who were praying in a Church beseeching God and the Blessed Virgin Mary on behalf of a dead baby, that it might be revived long enough to baptize it. Here is Joan's own testimony

 "I was told that the girls of the town were gathered before the statue of our Lady and wanted me to come and pray to God and our Lady to bring a baby back to life. So I went and prayed with the others. And finally life appeared in him, and he yawned three times. Then he was baptized, and soon afterwords he died, and was buried in consecrated ground.
 
 For three days, I was told, he had shown no signs of life, and he was as black as my jacket. But when he yawned his color began to come back. And I was on my knees there with the other girls, praying before our Lady."

 
Saint Peter Claver (died 1654 A.D.) and the event regarding Augustina >
"When Father Claver arrived at her deathbed, Augustina lay cold to the touch, her body already being prepared for burial. He prayed at her bedside for one hour, when suddenly the woman sat up, vomited a pool of blood, and declared upon being questioned by those in attendance: ‘I have come from journeying along a long road. After I had gone a long way down it, I met a white man of great beauty who stood before me and said: Stop! You can go no further.’ ...

On hearing this, Father Claver cleared the room and prepared to hear her Confession, thinking she was in need of absolution for some sin she may have forgotten. But in the course of the ritual, St. Peter Claver was inspired to realize that she had never been baptized.

He cut short her confession and declined to give her absolution, calling instead for water with which to baptize her. Augustina’s master insisted that she could not possibly need baptism since she had been in his employ for twenty years and had never failed to go to Mass, Confession, and Communion all that time (Augustina's master must have thought that she had already been baptized). Nevertheless, Father Claver insisted on baptizing her, after which Augustina died again joyfully and peacefully in the presence of the whole family."
 
Father Point >
 Fr. Point, S.J. was a fellow Jesuit Missionary to the Indians with Fr. De Smet in the 19th century. He tells a very interesting story about the miraculous resuscitation for baptism of a person who had been instructed in the Faith but apparently died without receiving the sacrament.

Father Point, S.J., quoted in The Life of Fr. De Smet, pp. 165-166  >
 "One morning, upon leaving the Church I met an Indian woman, who said: ‘So-and-so is not well.’ She (the person who was not well) was not yet a catechumen and I said I would go to see her. An hour later the same person (who came and told him the person is not well), who was her sister, came to me saying she was dead. I ran to the tent, hoping she might be mistaken, and found a crowd of relatives around the bed, repeating, 'She is dead – she has not breathed for some time.' To assure myself, I leaned over the body; there was no sign of life. I reproved these excellent people for not telling me at once of the gravity of the situation, adding,


'May God forgive me!’ Then, rather impatiently, I said, 'Pray!' and all fell on their knees and prayed devoutly.

"I again leaned over the supposed corpse and said, 'The Black Robe is here: do you wish him to baptize you?' At the word baptism I saw a slight tremor of the lower lip; then both lips moved, making me certain that she understood. She had already been instructed, so I at once baptized her, and she rose from her bier, making the sign of the cross. Today she is out hunting and is fully persuaded that she died at the time I have recounted."



Saint Francis De Sales, died 1622 A.D. >
 In the life of St. Francis De Sales we also find a child miraculously raised from the dead specifically for the Sacrament of Baptism.

"A baby, the child of a heretic mother, had died without baptism. St. Francis had gone to speak to the mother about Catholic doctrine, and prayed that the child would be restored to life long enough to receive Baptism. His prayer was granted, and the whole family became Catholic."



 Saint Stephen, died c. 33 A.D. (through his intervention) >
 "At Uzale, a woman had an infant son… Unfortunately, he died before they had time to baptize him. His mother was overwhelmed with grief, more for his being deprived of Life Eternal than because he was dead to her. Full of confidence, she took the dead child and publicly carried him to the Church of St. Stephen, the first martyr. There she commenced to pray for the son she had just lost. Her son moved, uttered a cry, and was suddenly restored to life. She immediately brought him to the priests; and, after receiving the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation, he died anew."
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Last Tradhican on August 17, 2017, 04:21:14 AM
There are many other accounts of people being brought back from the dead just to be baptized then they die right after the baptism.

There are also hundreds of thousands of authenticated Catholic accounts of people barely hanging onto life for long periods of time (the Indians of the Americas) till a missionary wandered by baptize them, then they died within minutes. You can read about it in Father De Smet's biography  The life of Father De Smet, The Apostle of the Rockiesand also in Isaac Jogues's biography Saint Among Savages: The Life of St. Isaac Jogues.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: JPaul on August 17, 2017, 07:52:33 AM
One must be of good will and not decieved, to hold true the Historical mythos of the Church.  Those who love the Church and believe in Christ find no obstacle and enter into these Mysteries as little children without guile or doubt.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Merry on August 17, 2017, 08:45:39 AM
Yes - there are more stories than these.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: MyrnaM on August 17, 2017, 09:37:16 AM
Strange how all these pious stories are considered infallible, but the stories that tell a different slant are not worth the words printed since they are "not infallible" as the Benedict Center or Diamond Bros. see it.  

:facepalm:

Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Last Tradhican on August 17, 2017, 09:48:46 AM

Quote
Strange how all these pious stories are considered infallible, but the stories that tell a different slant are not worth the words printed since they are "not infallible" as the Benedict Center or Diamond Bros. see it.  
Considered infallible? That's a strawman.

There are only like 3 stories in the whole history of the Church that keep being raised to the level of dogma about Jєωs being saved since the new dispensation. Meanwhile there are hundreds of thousands of accounts of people clinging to life for long periods of time, just to die minutes after baptism.    
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Ladislaus on August 17, 2017, 09:57:42 AM
Great thread.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Ladislaus on August 17, 2017, 09:58:58 AM
Strange how all these pious stories are considered infallible, but the stories that tell a different slant are not worth the words printed since they are "not infallible" as the Benedict Center or Diamond Bros. see it.  

:facepalm:

Quite the contrary, we don't consider any of these "infallible".  You, on the other hand, present your stories as dogmatic proof when they're not.  These are just illustrations of how God does arrange matters, sometimes even miraculously, to bring the Sacrament to His elect.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: MyrnaM on August 17, 2017, 11:38:10 AM



Yes, yes, I know ... we all know what you are doing!   

Anything that suits your erroneous beliefs you put much weight. 

But, continue to ridicule the other side   ;)




Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Ladislaus on August 17, 2017, 12:27:00 PM


Yes, yes, I know ... we all know what you are doing!  

Anything that suits your erroneous beliefs you put much weight.

But, continue to ridicule the other side   ;)

Yes, Our Lord taught error that no one could be saved unless they were born again of "water" (a word that the blasphemer LoT routinely ridicules, mocking the notion that water is necessary for salvation despite Our Lord's solemn teaching to that effect).
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Last Tradhican on August 17, 2017, 12:32:25 PM

Quote
Anything that suits your erroneous beliefs you put much weight. 

But, continue to ridicule the other side   
What is "the other side"?

Our side believes that dogmas are the final word on a subject of prior confusion. We simply quote the clear dogmas as they are written. 

The "other side" believes that the theologians and Catholic writers interpret dogma, or at least they use that mix of theologians and other writers to conclude:

that for instance these two dogmas mean that Jєωs, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhist....etc can be saved by their belief in a rewarder god:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
 

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …

Of course, to our side that conclusion is insane.

Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 17, 2017, 12:39:57 PM


Yes, yes, I know ... we all know what you are doing!   

Anything that suits your erroneous beliefs you put much weight.

But, continue to ridicule the other side   ;)
So, if you cut the crap, you're calling him a liar, opportunist, and pragmatist.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Ladislaus on August 17, 2017, 12:52:51 PM
Anything that suits your erroneous beliefs you put much weight.

On the contrary, I look at the entire body of evidence objectively.  I've never condemned anyone for believing in BoD.  I've condemned Pelagianism, denial of EENS, modernist ecclesiology, and heretical denial of Trent's dogmatic teaching that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.  I've taken note of the fact that many theologians believe in BoD, but it's clear from the evidence that there's no proof for this opinion and that it's just their personal opinion, an opinion with which I disagree.  I have no issues with someone believing in BoD provided that they do not simultaneously undermine EENS, promote heretical ecclesiology, advocate Pelagianism, and deny the necessity of the Sacraments (even mockingly deriding them in language identical to that of the Protestants).  So far only two BoDers on CI (Arvinger and Nishant) have met these criteria.

Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: MyrnaM on August 17, 2017, 01:35:28 PM



To all of you ...


 uh huh!    :soapbox:
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 17, 2017, 01:48:20 PM


To all of you ...


uh huh!    :soapbox:
Your credibility just vanished in a puff of childish. It does save further wasted time, so thanks for that.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Miseremini on August 17, 2017, 02:22:40 PM
Myrna, under each of your posts is the following quote.

Galatians 1; 8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.


Can you give me a quote to support your belief?
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: MyrnaM on August 17, 2017, 03:40:54 PM
Myrna, under each of your posts is the following quote.

Galatians 1; 8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.


Can you give me a quote to support your belief?
Try this one!
Trent also states: "Justification . . . is not merely remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts, whereby an unrighteous man becomes a righteous man, and from being an enemy [of God] becomes a friend, that he may be ‘an heir according to the hope of life everlasting’ [Titus 3:7]" (Decree on Justification7). 
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: MyrnaM on August 17, 2017, 03:42:39 PM
Your credibility just vanished in a puff of childish. It does save further wasted time, so thanks for that.
 Had I credibility in your mind? ... I am flattered!   :cheers:
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 17, 2017, 03:59:50 PM
Had I credibility in your mind? ... I am flattered!   :cheers:
Which is a tacit self-admission that you shouldn't be believed. Thanks also for the confirmation. Cheers yourself.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 17, 2017, 06:14:45 PM

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http://www.miraclesofthesaints.com/
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Quote
So great a missionary was St. Vincent Ferrer that he can only be compared to the 12 Apostles. His accomplishments were incredible and rare in the whole history of the Church; his life story contains one amazing story after another, many of these are docuмented in the book, St. Vincent Ferrer –The Angel of the Judgment, by Father Andrew Pradel, O.P.

When St. Vincent Ferrer was 46 years old, suffering from a grievous illness, Our Lord appeared to him, accompanied by St. Francis and St. Dominic.  Our Lord said to Vincent, among other things, "Arise, then, and go to preach against vice; for this have I specially chosen thee.  Exhort sinners to repentance, for My judgment is at hand."  Our Lord told St. Vincent that his preaching before the coming of Antichrist would be for mankind a merciful occasion of repentance and conversion.  During this vision St. Vincent was immediately cured.

Two years later, in 1398, he was given permission to begin his apostolate of preaching.  St. Vincent traveled all over western Europe preaching penance, attracting enormous crowds, and followed by thousands of disciples.  He converted St. Bernardine of Siena and Blessed Margaret of Savoy.  Vincent had the gift of languages; preaching in his Valencion idiom he was understood wherever he went;1 and in conversation he spoke French, Italian, German or English as fluently as his native tongue.

There was a rich Jєω of Andalusia, named Abraham, who began to leave a church in anger while Vincent was preach-ing.  The Jєω did not like what he was hearing.  As some people at the door opposed his passing through, St. Vincent cried out: "Let him go! Come away all of you at once, and leave the passage free!"  The people did as he ordered, and at the instant the Jєω left, part of the porch structure fell on him and crushed him to death.  Then the saint rose from his chair and went to the body.  He knelt there in prayer.  Abraham came to life, and his first words were:  "The religion of the Jєωs is not the true faith.  The True Faith is that of the Christians."

The father of a certain child had given Vincent lodging while he was on a missionary journey. His wife, a virtuous woman, suffered from bad attacks of nerves, and at times was close to madness. Upon his return from hearing one of Vincent's sermons, the father came upon a terrible tragedy. His wife had gone mad, cut their small son's throat, then chopped up the boy's body and roasted a portion of it, which she then attempted to serve her husband.

When he realized what had happened, the man fled in horror and disgust to St. Vincent Ferrer. Vincent told him that-as in the case of the crushed Jєω -- the tragedy would be for the glory of God.  St. Vincent went with the father back to the home and prayed as he gathered the bloody pieces together.

He said to the father: 
"If you have faith, God, who created this little soul from nothing, can bring him back to life."

Vincent knelt and prayed.  He made the Sign of the Cross over the reassembled body.  The pieces became united together, the body came to life again, and Vincent handed over to the father a living child.  This event is depicted in a painting by Francesco del Cossa in the New Picture Gallery in the Vatican.  Bishop Ranzano claimed this as one of the miracles submitted in the canonization process for St. Vincent Ferrer.

One should note that none of these miracles were performed for mere sensationalism, which the saints despise.  They were worked for various good purposes, especially the conversion of sinners and the strengthening of faith.  As St. Vincent told the bereaved father, miracles are worked for the glory of God.  This was also stated by Christ at the grave of Lazarus, and to His Apostles.  The saints' powers are of course limited by God, to whom all power belongs.  Otherwise, with unrestricted powers, the saints could be "as gods."

We learn from St. Vincent Ferrer that one must never mock the gifts God has given to His saints.  As has happened in similar cases, on one occasion a boy pretended to be dead, while his friends snickered.  St. Vincent leaned over and shook him -- a corpse! Vincent said: "He pretended to be dead to amuse you, but evil has come upon him; he is dead!" A cross was erected to commemorate the event.2  Happenings like that can save many souls by instilling in them a healthy fear of the Lord.
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This is the meaning of "speaking in tongues" as the Apostles did -- their native tongue is understood in many languages at the same time. His ability to speak foreign languages in private conversation is another gift of language.
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The saints despise sensationalism. 
Miracles are worked for the glory of God.
We must never mock the gifts God has given to His saints.
Miracles can save many souls by instilling in them a healthy fear of the Lord.
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A cross was erected to commemorate the event, but later, liberals removed the cross because it was offensive to Jєωs. As liberals eradicate the memory of saints' miracles, so too they sensationalize them, as if they're not worked for the glory of God, and so trivialize due reverence for defined doctrine and thereby, they mock the gifts God has given to His saints, depriving many souls of a healthy fear of the Lord by which they would be saved. Unfortunately, this spirit of fear of offending non-Catholics, sensationalizing the memory of saints' miracles, mocking the gifts God has given to His saints, depriving many souls of a healthy fear of the Lord and trivializing the due reverence for dogma, is a by-product of sedevacantism.
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Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Ladislaus on August 17, 2017, 06:29:56 PM
Had I credibility in your mind?

Yeah, I found that statement surprising as well.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Ladislaus on August 17, 2017, 06:32:14 PM
On the contrary, I look at the entire body of evidence objectively.  I've never condemned anyone for believing in BoD.  I've condemned Pelagianism, denial of EENS, modernist ecclesiology, and heretical denial of Trent's dogmatic teaching that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.  I've taken note of the fact that many theologians believe in BoD, but it's clear from the evidence that there's no proof for this opinion and that it's just their personal opinion, an opinion with which I disagree.  I have no issues with someone believing in BoD provided that they do not simultaneously undermine EENS, promote heretical ecclesiology, advocate Pelagianism, and deny the necessity of the Sacraments (even mockingly deriding them in language identical to that of the Protestants).  So far only two BoDers on CI (Arvinger and Nishant) have met these criteria.

Oh, yes, I forgot Matto.  My apologies to him.  He also believes in a Catholic version of the BoD hypothesis.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 17, 2017, 06:52:11 PM

Quote
...I have no issues with someone believing in BoD provided that they do not simultaneously undermine EENS, promote heretical ecclesiology, advocate Pelagianism, and deny the necessity of the Sacraments (even mockingly deriding them in language identical to that of the Protestants).  So far only two BoDers on CI (Arvinger and Nishant) have met these criteria.

Oh, yes, I forgot Matto.  My apologies to him.  He also believes in a Catholic version of the BoD hypothesis.
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It seems rather commonplace for BoB/BoD to go hand in hand with sedevacantism. I don't know any of the latter who are not also adherents of the former. Your post seems to support that too:  as far as I could tell, Arvinger, Nishant and Matto are not sedes.
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Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 17, 2017, 06:54:10 PM
Yeah, I found that statement surprising as well.
1. Is she Catholic?
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Matto on August 17, 2017, 09:46:18 PM
Oh, yes, I forgot Matto.  My apologies to him.  He also believes in a Catholic version of the BoD hypothesis.
Yes, I do believe in BOD and BOB in the way you describe. But I have no animosity towards Father Feeney like many believers in BOD and I consider those who deny BOD and BOB to be Catholics generally. I consider Father Feeney to have been a good priest as far as I know (but I don't know much about him really and have never read much of his writings except for some issues of "The Point" which I liked) and would not be surprised if he was in heaven, even though I believe in BOD and BOB, and I believe many of his enemies were really heretics.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 18, 2017, 04:48:51 AM
Oh, yes, I forgot Matto.  My apologies to him.  He also believes in a Catholic version of the BoD hypothesis.


It seems rather commonplace for BoB/BoD to go hand in hand with sedevacantism. I don't know any of the latter who are not also adherents of the former. Your post seems to support that too:  as far as I could tell, Arvinger, Nishant and Matto are not sedes.
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1. Sede
2. Have asked members here and elsewhere to elaborate on this Catholic(?) BO(?).
 1. Response? none.


Frankly, esp. outside the comparatively tiny cat wrangle of CI, I find Sededefectists to hold to BoD, in myriad iterations and mutation.

What they rarely DON'T hold to is either Liguori or Aquinas in the matter, which makes them super-special, esp. when they, with the consistency of a madman, froth at the gob otherwise.

This is often accompanied by calling SV heresy, yet  when asked to JUSTify that with specs, the most you ever really get is bits of V1 with the word "primacy" oddly glossed over or, more likely, omitted entirely.

TL;DR/Crayon version
1. There is no pope this side of the dirt.
2. Not SACRAMENTALLY baptised = Hell
3. Not Catholic = Hell

So, another SV who REJECTS BoD/B.

I would ask again for this allegedly non-heretical version, but why bother yet again?
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 18, 2017, 05:48:10 AM
1. Sede
2. Have asked members here and elsewhere to elaborate on this Catholic(?) BO(?).
 1. Response? none.


Frankly, esp. outside the comparatively tiny cat wrangle of CI, I find Sededefectists to hold to BoD, in myriad iterations and mutation.

What they rarely DON'T hold to is either Liguori or Aquinas in the matter, which makes them super-special, esp. when they, with the consistency of a madman, froth at the gob otherwise.

This is often accompanied by calling SV heresy, yet  when asked to JUSTify that with specs, the most you ever really get is bits of V1 with the word "primacy" oddly glossed over or, more likely, omitted entirely.

TL;DR/Crayon version
1. There is no pope this side of the dirt.
2. Not SACRAMENTALLY baptised = Hell
3. Not Catholic = Hell

So, another SV who REJECTS BoD/B.

I would ask again for this allegedly non-heretical version, but why bother yet again?
Correction: "… rarely DO… "
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 18, 2017, 05:52:18 AM
I believe it's when someone believes that it's the Sacrament that saves in voto as Ladislaus puts it. They say that you need the sacrament but you can receive the Sacrament by actually desiring it. It's still BOD though and not taught by the Church.
Thanks for trying man. Preesh.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 18, 2017, 06:10:48 AM
HAHA. It's complicated...unlike Catholic Dogma.
I think theres a potentially good argument f/simplicity to be made.

However, if so there is likely a wheel to be "invented".
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 18, 2017, 05:20:41 PM
So, where did the soul of those who died go before they were resurrected?
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Motorede on August 18, 2017, 07:44:22 PM
Strange how all these pious stories are considered infallible, but the stories that tell a different slant are not worth the words printed since they are "not infallible" as the Benedict Center or Diamond Bros. see it.  

:facepalm:
Poor Myrna just doesn't get or doesn't want to.  
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 21, 2017, 08:27:32 AM
It is quite obvious that according to the Providence of God these individuals were to be saved, and though a sleep, not judged.
And clear writing on the wall for those who carelessly follow those modernist bishops and priests that claim that spiritual rebirth can occur without the sacrament of Baptism.
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To say that the souls of those in mortal sin do not descend immediately to Hell when they die is a direct contradiction of Benedictus Deus, the papal definition that settled the controversy over the general judgment (regarding which John XXII is often slandered as a heretic).  When you die, you go where you're going to go.  That could be purgatory, but that's only a round-about way of going to Heaven.  After death we go to Heaven or Hell.  There is no third place.  Not since the Resurrection
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So, if:
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So, these stories are either false, or they prove BoD.  They can prove BoD since a person could be brought back-- at least as a vision-- from Heaven to return to earth.  But even this would not amount to a real baptism of water, since the resurrection of the body does not occur until after the general judgment, which does not occur until after the end of the world.  Which means that any such persons being "resurrected" wouldn't really be resurrected the same way that (e.g.) Lazarus was resurrected. 
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 21, 2017, 08:48:36 AM
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To say that the souls of those in mortal sin do not descend immediately to Hell when they die is a direct contradiction of Benedictus Deus, the papal definition that settled the controversy over the general judgment (regarding which John XXII is often slandered as a heretic).  When you die, you go where you're going to go.  That could be purgatory, but that's only a round-about way of going to Heaven.  After death we go to Heaven or Hell.  There is no third place.  Not since the Resurrection
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So, if:
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  • Justification is radically, absolutely, and ontologically impossible without the sacrament of baptism
  • Someone dies without receiving the sacrament of baptism
  • They descend immediately to Hell
  • And cannot be resurrected to return to Heaven, since the punishments of Hell are eternal.
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So, these stories are either false, or they prove BoD.  They can prove BoD since a person could be brought back-- at least as a vision-- from Heaven to return to earth.  But even this would not amount to a real baptism of water, since the resurrection of the body does not occur until after the general judgment, which does not occur until after the end of the world.  Which means that any such persons being "resurrected" wouldn't really be resurrected the same way that (e.g.) Lazarus was resurrected.
1. Are you equating the case of Lazarus with those as of the final (presuming that there are and/or have been) resurrection?

(note: not granting that pious stories, private revelations etc. are, at least directly, proper matter for Theology, Natural or otherwise)
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 21, 2017, 08:57:39 AM
Things work differently from the Old Covenant to the New.
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There is a reason that every instance of "true" resurrection-- i.e., the return of the soul and the body united to earth-- occurs prior to THE Resurrection (Christ's Resurrection, that is).  Prior to that time, the gates of Heaven were shut, and there really was a "third place" of sorts that was not purgatory, but the limbo of the fathers, from where people could be truly resurrected.
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That is what happened with Lazarus.  
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That is also what happens in the Book of Ezechiel, which is highly instructive as a matter of metaphysics to read the account of Ezechiel raising up the army of Israelites from bones.  It is a very illuminating and poignant testament to Catholic metaphysics as described by the likes of St. Thomas.  Which is neither here nor there in terms of direct applicability to the case at hand, but which serve as a reminder that when we talk about suspensions of the laws of nature for the production of some miracle or another, there is still an order by which these things occur.  Read Ezichiel and see how very carefully the scriptures describe the chronology of exactly how the dead are raised, all the while considering what we know about Catholic metaphysics and the relationship between soul and body, and so on.  
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 21, 2017, 09:09:57 AM
Every time I forget the folly of discourse with those who don't answer that asked, esp. something as simple as a y/n question with a simple, direct and IMMEDIATE y/n, I inevitably regret it.

Take care,

out.
Things work differently from the Old Covenant to the New.
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There is a reason that every instance of "true" resurrection-- i.e., the return of the soul and the body united to earth-- occurs prior to THE Resurrection (Christ's Resurrection, that is).  Prior to that time, the gates of Heaven were shut, and there really was a "third place" of sorts that was not purgatory, but the limbo of the fathers, from where people could be truly resurrected.
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That is what happened with Lazarus. 
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That is also what happens in the Book of Ezechiel, which is highly instructive as a matter of metaphysics to read the account of Ezechiel raising up the army of Israelites from bones.  It is a very illuminating and poignant testament to Catholic metaphysics as described by the likes of St. Thomas.  Which is neither here nor there in terms of direct applicability to the case at hand, but which serve as a reminder that when we talk about suspensions of the laws of nature for the production of some miracle or another, there is still an order by which these things occur.  Read Ezichiel and see how very carefully the scriptures describe the chronology of exactly how the dead are raised, all the while considering what we know about Catholic metaphysics and the relationship between soul and body, and so on. 
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 21, 2017, 09:37:44 AM
Every time I forget the folly of discourse with those who don't answer that asked, esp. something as simple as a y/n question with a simple, direct and IMMEDIATE y/n, I inevitably regret it.

Take care,

out.
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Your question didn't actually make sense.  I didn't point that out in my reply to you, but now that you want to get snippy, it seems worth it.  
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It isn't a question of simple equity between the two cases.  There is little comparison between the resurrection of Lazarus and the resurrection of the body after the general judgment from a theological perspective.  From a metaphysical perspective (i.e., the actual metaphysical operation of what entails resurrection, namely, the reunion of soul and body) there is certainly parity.
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There's two ways to look at this.  On the one hand, we have conclusive dogmatic proof that what is alleged in the OP is impossible as a matter of faith.  The proof of this is deduced from the infallible definition in Benedictus Deus, which precludes the possibility of a soul not descending immediately to Hell if it dies in the state of mortal sin.  So, (ironically), the only way that these Pious stories make any sense at all is if the souls of such people actually received BoD, were justified and went to Heaven, and then returned as a vision.
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The dogmatic proof alone suffices to settle the value of the OP's proof.  It's garbage.  It's contrary to defined teaching.
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On the other hand, there is the bevy of metaphysical and theological notions that produce the definition of Benedictus Deus.  The discussion of Lazarus, Ezechiel, the relationship between soul and body, etc. are some of the underpinning and informing reasons that we have the definitions contained in Benedictus Deus.
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Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 21, 2017, 09:41:09 AM
Regarding those underlying metaphysical and theological notions, here is the passage from Ezechiel in question (Chapter 37):


Quote
The hand of the Lord was upon me, and brought me forth in the spirit of the Lord: and set me down in the midst of a plain that was full of bones. [2] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=31&ch=37&l=2-#x) And he led me about through them on every side: now they were very many upon the face of the plain, and they were exceeding dry. [3] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=31&ch=37&l=3-#x) And he said to me: Son of man, dost thou think these bones shall live? And I answered: O Lord God, thou knowest. [4] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=31&ch=37&l=4-#x) And he said to me: Prophesy concerning these bones; and say to them: Ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. [5] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=31&ch=37&l=5-#x) Thus saith the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will send spirit into you, and you shall live.

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[6] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=31&ch=37&l=6-#x) And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to grow over you, and will cover you with skin: and I will give you spirit and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the Lord. [7] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=31&ch=37&l=7-#x) And I prophesied as he had commanded me: and as I prophesied there was a noise, and behold a commotion: and the bones came together, each one to its joint. [8] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=31&ch=37&l=8-#x) And I saw, and behold the sinews, and the flesh came up upon them: and the skin was stretched out over them, but there was no spirit in them. [9] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=31&ch=37&l=9-#x) And he said to me: Prophesy to the spirit, prophesy, O son of man, and say to the spirit: Thus saith the Lord God: Come, spirit, from the four winds, and blow upon these slain, and let them live again. [10] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=31&ch=37&l=10-#x) And I prophesied as he had commanded me: and the spirit came into them, and they lived: and they stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

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[11] (http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=31&ch=37&l=11-#x) And he said to me: Son of man: All these bones are the house of Israel: they say: Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost, and we are cut off.



Note the careful detail the Scriptures devote to the chronology of the resurrection.  It could just as easily have read, (something along the lines of) "and now all the bones were raised up by the Lord and were men again, who said/did such and such a thing..."
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But instead the scriptures actually devote time to describing precise stages of resurrection.  The flesh is formed back onto the bone.  This makes the body potentially capable of movement, and we see that the Lord moves the joints in order to facilitate the rejoining of flesh to bone.  And then, before the reunion of soul to body, Ezechiel stops to note that "there was no spirit in them."  Only after the spirit (soul) is breathed back into them is the army now composed of actual men who, of their own, can live and speak.
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The point is simply that a human person, who alone is capable of receiving a sacrament, is soul and body (a metaphysical claim, supported here by the scriptures).  But since Christ's Resurrection, the two are separated after death, and not united again until after the general judgment, which is at the end of time (a dogmatic claim).  
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With that in mind, it's impossible-- metaphysically, but also as a matter of doctrine-- for someone to be resurrected in the way contended, after Christ's Resurrection.  And that's why the only instances we find of resurrection are in fact in scripture, and prior to the Resurrection of Our Lord, when there was still a Limbo of the Fathers.  
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But look, this is all a more intricate approach to the question which is settled quite simply by the infallible definition of Benedictus Deus, which doesn't get into the theology behind the matter, but simply defines the fact that those who die justified go immediately to Heaven (or purgatory, which is just a roundabout way of getting there-- you don't go to purgatory unless you're going to Heaven) where they enjoy the Beatific vision, or immediately to Hell where they are separated from God for all eternity.  If, on the anti-BoD hypothesis, someone dies without water baptism, they, by definition, go to Hell.  And now these same theorists will have us believe that they can leave Hell, come back to earth, be baptized, and go to Heaven?  No, no, no.  This runs roughshod over Catholic metaphysics and Catholic doctrine.  You ruin every conception of the human person as soul and body by so contending, not to mention that you directly deny Benedictus Deus in the process.
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Of course, the proof advanced in the OP is just one many that those who deny BoD will advance, and I don't pretend that its failure is tantamount to proof for BoD being Catholic teaching (that is proved through the magisterium).  But this particular proof is completely bogus.  It is telling, just like the thread on here several months ago that tried to claim that BoD is a condemned Calvinist proposition, that many deniers of BoD don't care about theology in the slightest.  
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Stubborn on August 21, 2017, 10:18:30 AM
So, where did the soul of those who died go before they were resurrected?
Have they ever said? If not, we don't know.
All we can actually know with certainty, is that once they were baptized and left this life, they went directly to heaven.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 21, 2017, 10:32:12 AM
Have they ever said? If not, we don't know.
All we can actually know with certainty, is that once they were baptized and left this life, they went directly to heaven.
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We can know, though, through very simple deduction.
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There are a grand total of two possibilities after death (after Christ's resurrection).  Either Heaven (including purgatory, which guarantees eventual Heaven) or Hell.
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Now, from the anti-BoD perspective, you can't possibly argue that such persons went to Heaven or purgatory.  Which only leaves Hell.  Which, in this particular narrative, is a place that they're leaving and then afterward going to Heaven.  Nice.  Definitely incentivizes not getting baptized while you're alive the first time, wouldn't you say? :D
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Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 21, 2017, 10:37:44 AM
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We can know, though, through very simple deduction.
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There are a grand total of two possibilities after death (after Christ's resurrection).  Either Heaven (including purgatory, which guarantees eventual Heaven) or Hell.
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Now, from the anti-BoD perspective, you can't possibly argue that such persons went to Heaven or purgatory.  Which only leaves Hell.  Which, in this particular narrative, is a place that they're leaving and then afterward going to Heaven.  Nice.  Definitely incentivizes not getting baptized while you're alive the first time, wouldn't you say? :D
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Word to the would be wise, carefully consider this alleged "… grand total…", errors of equivocation, and errors of bifurcation.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Stubborn on August 21, 2017, 10:44:38 AM
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We can know, though, through very simple deduction.
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There are a grand total of two possibilities after death (after Christ's resurrection).  Either Heaven (including purgatory, which guarantees eventual Heaven) or Hell.
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Now, from the anti-BoD perspective, you can't possibly argue that such persons went to Heaven or purgatory.  Which only leaves Hell.  Which, in this particular narrative, is a place that they're leaving and then afterward going to Heaven.  Nice.  Definitely incentivizes not getting baptized while you're alive the first time, wouldn't you say? :D
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Unless they told us, or unless it was divinely revealed, then no, we cannot know.

But if we were to guess (very simple deduction), then we have to say because they died without having ever received the sacrament of baptism, they went to limbo, were raised from the dead, were baptized, then died and went directly to heaven.

The only thing we know for certain of their whereabouts after their first death, is being that they died without baptism, they did not go to heaven until after they were baptized.

Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 21, 2017, 11:14:10 AM
Unless they told us, or unless it was divinely revealed, then no, we cannot know.

But if we were to guess (very simple deduction), then we have to say because they died without having ever received the sacrament of baptism, they went to limbo, were raised from the dead, were baptized, then died and went directly to heaven.

The only thing we know for certain of their whereabouts after their first death, is being that they died without baptism, they did not go to heaven until after they were baptized.
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Limbo (of the infants-- if it exists) is part of Hell.  There is no third place. 
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This isn't guess work.  We have divinely revealed truth and solemn definitions which say that Heaven and Hell are the only eternal resting places, and that when a person dies, they go immediately to Hell if they are reprobate.
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This is before we even discuss any of the underlying theology, which I'm sure we won't do, because you don't care about it and make it up for your own purposes as you go along.  Where's Ladislaus?  He's supposed to be the one with the nuanced view who looks at everything objectively and gives each 'side' their due criticism, just ask him, he'll tell you, and I would have expected that at least he would see how completely ludicrous the OP's attempt at proof is. 
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Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Stubborn on August 21, 2017, 11:36:33 AM
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Limbo (of the infants-- if it exists) is part of Hell.  There is no third place.  
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This isn't guess work.  We have divinely revealed truth and solemn definitions which say that Heaven and Hell are the only eternal resting places, and that when a person dies, they go immediately to Hell if they are reprobate.
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This is before we even discuss any of the underlying theology, which I'm sure we won't do, because you don't care about it and make it up for your own purposes as you go along.  Where's Ladislaus?  He's supposed to be the one with the nuanced view who looks at everything objectively and gives each 'side' their due criticism, just ask him, he'll tell you, and I would have expected that at least he would see how completely ludicrous the OP's attempt at proof is.  
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All we know with absolute certainty, is that they did not go to heaven until after they received the sacrament of baptism. 
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Matto on August 21, 2017, 11:40:25 AM
I have heard stories about people being resurrected to be baptized also. About different saints including Saint Patrick and Saint Joan of Arc. Those who died unbaptized went to hell and after being resurrected and baptized they were brought out of hell and when they died they went to heaven.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 21, 2017, 11:52:38 AM
SAINT EMERENTIANA: Those familiar with the traditional Breviary (dropped from the Novus Ordo "missals") will know the story of this virgin and martyr. The idea that the Church would have her religious commemorate such a person who was - according to those who deny Baptism of Desire and Blood - on a yearly basis for some 1800 years - is to say the least "offensive to pious ears." Let us quote the Breviary directly:

"Emerantiana, a Roman virgin, step-sister of the blessed Agnes, while still a catechumen, burning with faith and charity, when she vehemently rebuked idol-worshippers who were stealing from Christians, was stoned and struck down by the crowd which she had angered. Praying in her agony at the tomb of holy Agnes, baptized by her own blood which she poured forth unflinchingly for Christ, she gave up her soul to God."

This virgin and martyr died in Rome about the year 350. A church was built over her grave. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (1908, some days after the death of St. Agnes, Emerentiana who was still a catechumen, went to the grave to pray, and while praying she was suddenly attacked by the pagans and killed with stones. Her feast is kept on January 23 and she is again commemorated on Sept 16 under the phrase in caemeterio maiore (where she is buried). She is represented in the iconography of the church with stones in her lap and a palm of lily in her hands. Some have argued that she was baptized - but such is absurd as she is both called a catechumen, and the Church states in her liturgy that she was "baptized in her own blood."[4] (http://www.the-pope.com/bapodesr.html#_ftn4)

Yet another example, enshrined in the Breviary in the office of Nov. 10, is that of ST. RESPICIUS.

"During the reign of the emperor Decius, as Tryphon was preaching the faith of Jesus Christ and striving to persuade all  men to worship the Lord, he was arrested by the henchmen of Decius. First, he was tortured on the rack, his flesh torn with iron hooks, then hung head downward, his feet pierced with red hot nails. He was beaten by clubs, scorched by burning torches held against his body. As a result of seeing him endure all these tortures so courageously, the tribune Respicius was converted to the faith of Christ the Lord. Upon the spot he publicly declared himself to be a Christian. Respicius was then tortured in various ways, and toggether with Tryphon, dragged to a statue of Jupiter. As Tryphon prayed, the statue fell down. After this occurredboth were mercilessly beaten with leaden tipped whips and thus attained to glorious martyrdom."

ST AMBROSE, another doctor of the Church, provides us with the fourth example. He has the following to say with  regard to the death of Valentinian II, who was murdered at Vienne in the year 371. Valentinian II was the son of the Emperor Valintinian I, Emperor of the West, and his second wife Justina. Valintinian I and Justina had been displaced by Mangus Maximus, and had sought support from the Arian Theodosius, who was Emperor of the East. As a result  Valentinian II for many years he sat on the fence and tried to bring about a compromise in the arguments between the Arians and the Orthodox. In this he was opposed by St. Ambrose. When his mother died, Valentinian II abandoned Arianism, became a catechumen, and invited St. Ambrose to come to Gaul and administer baptism to him. He was however αssαssιnαtҽd before this could happen and his body was brought to Milan where the saint delivered his funeral oration "De obitu Valentiniani consolatio" which dwelt on the efficacy of baptism of desire. The following is extracted from this oration:

"But I hear that you are distressed because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism. Tell me, what attribute do we have besides our will, our intention? Yet, a short time ago he had this desire that before he came to Italy he should be initiated [baptized], and he indicated that he wanted to be baptized as soon as possible by myself. Did he not, therefore, have that grace which he desired? Did he not have what he asked for? Undoubtedly because he asked for it he received it. Whence it is written, 'The just man, by whatsoever death he shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest'(Wisdom, 4:7)."[5] (http://www.the-pope.com/bapodesr.html#_ftn5)

[4] (http://www.the-pope.com/bapodesr.html#_ftnref4)                    Thomas Hutchinson explains this away by assuring us that  if at the time of her martyrdom "she had truly not been baptized, it must be expected that someone would have done it while she lay dying."

[5] (http://www.the-pope.com/bapodesr.html#_ftnref5)    Thomas Hutchinson informs us that St. Ambrose was using a political ploy, and that he made this statement in an "highly charged atmosphere  of grief, fear, and popular anger surrounding the funeral."  He then assures us that St. Ambrose in fact "knew" that Valentinian had indeed been baptized, but was not at liberty to reveal the circuмstances of the evnet, which presumably were bound up with the Emperor's mysterious death."
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Stubborn on August 21, 2017, 11:58:40 AM
It is just as easy to speculate that God provided Baptism to St. Emerantiana through an unseen miracle to supply His requisites for salvation, as it is to use our want of knowledge as proof of its dispensability. What we do not know is not a proof of anything.

If the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.

St. Aiphonsus de Liquori tells us that there were approximately eleven million martyrs in the first three centuries of the Church's history. Out of these eleven million martyrs, and the thousands of others which have been recorded since by various Church historians, there are about ten cases in which the martyrs are reported to have died without baptism. In not one of these cases can we assert or conclude positively that these persons were not baptized.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 21, 2017, 12:14:01 PM
It's unbelievable.  We've got people here who are implying the non-eternity of Hell, the possibility of more than two eternal final places, the possibility of not going immediately to Hell, the possibility of soul and body being reunited before the general judgment, and now to top it off, we have the sacrament of baptism "through an unseen miracle."
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Kids, this is what confirmation bias does to you.  You turn around, look, and all of a sudden you've toppled half a dozen truths on the way to retaining your pet theory.
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Those of you with children who are first communion age hopefully recall, if you didn't already, that a sacrament is a visible sign.  "Invisible baptism" is not baptism at all.
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Just abandon this ridiculous proof, already.  Y'all are going to keep reading Trent without any deference to the catechisms, popes, theologians, saints, or any authoritative teaching mechanism of the Church anyways, that's where your bread and butter is, so stick to that.  Those "on the fence" who see you turning the most basic tenets of Catholic theology and doctrine on their head to retain your position aren't going to be won over, that's for sure.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Stubborn on August 21, 2017, 12:19:58 PM
What we do not know is not a proof of anything, yet if the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 21, 2017, 12:32:07 PM
Strange how all these pious stories are considered infallible, but the stories that tell a different slant are not worth the words printed since they are "not infallible" as the Benedict Center or Diamond Bros. see it.  

:facepalm:
You were down thumbed 6 times, a sure sign the feeneyites cannot refute you.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 21, 2017, 12:35:46 PM
Quite the contrary, we don't consider any of these "infallible".  You, on the other hand, present your stories as dogmatic proof when they're not.  These are just illustrations of how God does arrange matters, sometimes even miraculously, to bring the Sacrament to His elect.
We present authoritative and infallible TEACHINGS from approved sources united on the issue while you settled for STORIES.  You put more weight on stories than teaching if the teaching goes against what your monumental intellectual pride wishes to believe.

Do you believe you would be deprived of the Beatific Vision of you were martyred before you were baptized?  Do you believe your salvation could be called into question.  
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 21, 2017, 12:36:48 PM
What is "the other side"?

Our side believes that dogmas are the final word on a subject of prior confusion. We simply quote the clear dogmas as they are written.

The "other side" believes that the theologians and Catholic writers interpret dogma, or at least they use that mix of theologians and other writers to conclude:

that for instance these two dogmas mean that Jєωs, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhist....etc can be saved by their belief in a rewarder god:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
 

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …

Of course, to our side that conclusion is insane.
The Catholic side accepts EENS and BOD.  The non-Catholic side rejects one or the other or both. 
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 21, 2017, 12:38:46 PM
On the contrary, I look at the entire body of evidence objectively.  I've never condemned anyone for believing in BoD.  I've condemned Pelagianism, denial of EENS, modernist ecclesiology, and heretical denial of Trent's dogmatic teaching that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.  I've taken note of the fact that many theologians believe in BoD, but it's clear from the evidence that there's no proof for this opinion and that it's just their personal opinion, an opinion with which I disagree.  I have no issues with someone believing in BoD provided that they do not simultaneously undermine EENS, promote heretical ecclesiology, advocate Pelagianism, and deny the necessity of the Sacraments (even mockingly deriding them in language identical to that of the Protestants).  So far only two BoDers on CI (Arvinger and Nishant) have met these criteria.
You trust yourself more than the theologians which is bad enough.  But also more than the Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes.  Can't you just be satisfied with being a private heretic?  Why do you have to blab your nonsense as if you are some sort of authority?
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 21, 2017, 12:39:32 PM
Your credibility just vanished in a puff of childish. It does save further wasted time, so thanks for that.
Talk about the kettle calling the snow black.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 21, 2017, 12:42:13 PM

 :barf:
It seems rather commonplace for BoB/BoD to go hand in hand with sedevacantism. I
 :barf:
:barf:  What a puke-worthy sentiment. :barf:  Talking about subjective riff-raff.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 21, 2017, 12:44:29 PM
I believe it's when someone believes that it's the Sacrament that saves in voto as Ladislaus puts it. They say that you need the sacrament but you can receive the Sacrament by actually desiring it. It's still BOD though and not taught by the Church.
Do you really believe we teach converts that it is up to them whether they want to receive the sacrament or just desire it?  You are intellectually dishonest at best.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 21, 2017, 12:47:53 PM
HAHA. It's complicated...unlike Catholic Dogma.
The Dogma of the Holy Trinity cannot be fully understood.  It is a great mystery not merely something complicated but can be fully understood.  Should we doubt this then as well? 
EENS apart from BOD is complicated as we then have to reject Trent or pretend it taught the opposite of what it taught.  Now that is complicating things. 
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 21, 2017, 12:50:08 PM
It is quite obvious that according to the Providence of God these individuals were to be saved, and though a sleep, not judged.
And clear writing on the wall for those who carelessly follow those modernist bishops and priests that claim that spiritual rebirth can occur without the sacrament of Baptism.
:facepalm: Souls are judged at the moment of death.

This used to be basic stuff before Feeneyites crashed the Catholic party.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 21, 2017, 12:51:52 PM
You really can smell the irony…
It's unbelievable.  We've got people here who are implying the non-eternity of Hell, the possibility of more than two eternal final places, the possibility of not going immediately to Hell, the possibility of soul and body being reunited before the general judgment, and now to top it off, we have the sacrament of baptism "through an unseen miracle."
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Kids, this is what confirmation bias does to you.  You turn around, look, and all of a sudden you've toppled half a dozen truths on the way to retaining your pet theory.
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Those of you with children who are first communion age hopefully recall, if you didn't already, that a sacrament is a visible sign.  "Invisible baptism" is not baptism at all.
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Just abandon this ridiculous proof, already.  Y'all are going to keep reading Trent without any deference to the catechisms, popes, theologians, saints, or any authoritative teaching mechanism of the Church anyways, that's where your bread and butter is, so stick to that.  Those "on the fence" who see you turning the most basic tenets of Catholic theology and doctrine on their head to retain your position aren't going to be won over, that's for sure.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 21, 2017, 01:00:00 PM
You were down thumbed 6 times, a sure sign the feeneyites cannot refute you.
Kinda like a pair of old slippers after a while. Of course if this were so sure, certain other conclusion hoppers would be vindicated as well.

Hey, I MUST be going gangbusters as well. "I'd like to thank the Academy…"
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 21, 2017, 01:06:52 PM
Quote
Kinda like a pair of old slippers after a while. Of course if this were so sure, certain other conclusion hoppers would be vindicated as well.

Hey, I MUST be going gangbusters as well. "I'd like to thank the Academy…"

The world would be a much better place if there were no schismatics, sodomites, feeneyites, pedophiles, heretics or apostates.   
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 21, 2017, 01:24:39 PM
Too bad there aren't any medically verified cases of people coming back from the dead. Then again, that might be taken as "proof" for all sorts of Hasty Puddin'
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 21, 2017, 01:25:59 PM
Too bad there aren't any medically verified cases of people coming back from the dead. Then again, that might be taken as "proof" for all sorts of Hasty Puddin'
Do you deny that a person is judged at the moment of death?
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 21, 2017, 01:43:59 PM
Has apparently forgotten our last little "chat", only reinforced by his double-standard of asking much, yet beholden, apparently not even to God almighty, to none to answer. Seems proper company for Myth.
Do you deny that a person is judged at the moment of death?
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 21, 2017, 01:58:49 PM
Has apparently forgotten our last little "chat", only reinforced by his double-standard of asking much, yet beholden, apparently not even to God almighty, to none to answer. Seems proper company for Myth.
If you were given the choice of martyrdom before baptism or denying Christ so you could get baptized which would you chose?
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 09:28:15 AM
No takers on the following question:

If you were given the choice of martyrdom before baptism or denying Christ so you could get baptized which would you chose?
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Last Tradhican on August 23, 2017, 10:47:56 AM
No takers on the following question:

If you were given the choice of martyrdom before baptism or denying Christ so you could get baptized which would you chose?

Both choices reveal your unbelief of divine providence and God's Omniscience and Omnipotence. Your unbelief is the root of your obsession with the subject of salvation of 
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 10:56:08 AM
Both choices reveal your unbelief of divine providence and God's Omniscience and Omnipotence. Your unbelief is the root of your obsession with the subject of salvation of
Your choosing not to answer is even more revealing.  
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 23, 2017, 11:08:48 AM
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I'm not a Latin reader, so I don't know anything about "mox"; a few dictionaries I've consulted give the primary meaning as being soon in the respect of being next in time or position (which makes perfect sense, given the dogma-- it's distinguishable from the "soon" that you say to a five year old who asks if you're there yet).  But shouldn't the dogma speak for itself, rather than having us have to rely on dictionaries to understand it?  Dictionaries aren't infallible.  If the Church teaches primarily-- or only-- through solemn definitions, then it follows that she, being capable and divinely equipped to execute her mission, speaks clearly in solemn definitions.  Right?  If you're finding an ambiguity of language, that's your problem.
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So, we're back to a problem of methodology.  Now, for those of us whose methodology allows and encourages us to learn from the Church's ordinary teaching, we find out that the usual translation is immediately simply because the doctrine is that the particular judgment occurs immediately after death, with the sending to Heaven/Purgatory or Hell immediately or instantaneously to the judgment (Parente, 1953).  We might, in a manner of speaking, say that such souls do not ascend or descend immediately, but only because they must be judged "first."  Not because they can be preserved in a stasis or slumber pending judgment and punishment or reward.
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Interestingly enough, GJC's contention (which you are repeating here) of some stasis or slumber is positively condemned; it's not just a matter of being very difficult to reconcile with Benedictus Deus or any of the other creeds that reinforce the immediacy of Heaven or Hell after death, but "the soul's slumber" is an idea that was tossed around and already condemned (McHugh, 1910).  
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So, you see?  I am "learning from man." :D 
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I agree that you don't need these pious stories as proof of your conclusion.  So stop defending them.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 11:48:23 AM
I am not finding ambiguity, only misleading translation, at least try to be accurate. If "mox" means soon, then your interpretation that the soul goes, at the moment of brain death, to it's final place, may be wrong. We do not know how long or what happens between the point where we say "hey...he's dead" and the point of no return. We do KNOW that there is no salvation for those not Sacramentally Baptized. So, if these stories are true there is no conflict between Benedictus Deus and these stories being evidence of the necessity of water Baptism.

Also, am I to assume that you have given up the salvation of unbaptized "martyrs" since you didn't address it. Also, why are you even reading these Dogmas? You only refer to men for further interpretation.
But to defend your heresy you are going to great lengths depending on extraordinary means as the saving norm.  Having one come back to life just so he can get baptized.  Not that complicated.  

Do you understand the difference between a relative necessity of means and an absolute or intrinsic necessity of means?  The difference between the necessity of water and the necessity of faith for salvation to be possible?  Say you do.   
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Last Tradhican on August 23, 2017, 12:10:45 PM
Your choosing not to answer is even more revealing.  
No your question is moronic, only a person that does not believe in divine providence would ask such a puerile question.
Your unbelief is the cause of your illness.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 12:12:16 PM
No your question is moronic, only a person that does not believe in divine providence would ask such a puerile question.
Your unbelief is the cause of your illness.
My question puts your heresy in the proper light and leaves you crying like a baby.   :baby:
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 23, 2017, 12:16:26 PM
1. Who is ceding that there is such a thing as pre-baptismal martyrdom?
 1. Danger of equivocation re: "martyr",  no?

There are "martyrs" for "Manchester United" for cryijng out loud.
Both choices reveal your unbelief of divine providence and God's Omniscience and Omnipotence. Your unbelief is the root of your obsession with the subject of salvation of
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 12:24:26 PM
1. Who is ceding that there is such a thing as pre-baptismal martyrdom?
 1. Danger of equivocation re: "martyr",  no?

There are "martyrs" for "Manchester United" for cryijng out loud.
The Catholic Church.  Bust free from the heresy man and join the Catholic theologians, Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes for Heaven's sake.  
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 12:25:24 PM
Do you understand the definition of the word "necessary". The definition itself means absolute or no other means. The word relative implies something that is general but not always. This would change the meaning of the definition to mean something it does not say. We all know that it is not lawful to change the intended meaning of a Dogma.
Please tell me you know what necessary means.
You obviously don't get it.  I'll pray you somehow manage to save your soul and avoid speaking on an issue you know nothing about.  
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 23, 2017, 12:29:15 PM
Bet there's plenty of "rantin' room" on the doors of Wittenburg for all these feces theses…
The Catholic Church.  Bust free from the heresy man and join the Catholic theologians, Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes for Heaven's sake. 
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 12:29:45 PM
Bet there's plenty of "rantin' room" on the doors of Wittenburg for all these feces theses…
Well stated.  
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 23, 2017, 01:01:27 PM
If one consults Latin dictionaries (which one really has no business doing, considering that they aren't infallible, nor do they engage doctrine or morals), one finds that the common translation of the word "mox" is soon, but not "soon" the way that you would say to a child, "we'll be there soon."  It isn't an ambiguous soon, it's a determinant next place or condition.  To say that one descends immediately to Hell where "mox" is the word for immediate is to say that the very next place or condition experienced by the soul is Hell.  The idea that the soul slumbers or is otherwise delayed (besides whatever "delay" is imposed by the judgment itself) is a condemned proposition.  It's not a Catholic view. 
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At any rate, these pious stories either are or aren't sufficient proofs for the BoD denier.  Even Seven has already said that they aren't, so why he insists on defending them is beyond me.  Glutton for punishment, maybe.
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Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 01:46:56 PM

Quote
What's not Catholic about a person dying and arriving at the Particular Judgment and the Lord judging that there's need to be raised from the dead to be Baptized. Besides, there is no "time" in eternity, whether it's soon or immediately the idea is the same. Death then Judgment.
:facepalm:
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 23, 2017, 03:57:28 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus on August 17, 2017, 04:32:14 PM (https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/people-needing-baptism-raised-from-the-dead-etc/msg560625/#msg560625)
Quote
Quote

Quote
...I have no issues with someone believing in BoD provided that they do not simultaneously undermine EENS, promote heretical ecclesiology, advocate Pelagianism, and deny the necessity of the Sacraments (even mockingly deriding them in language identical to that of the Protestants).  So far only two BoDers on CI (Arvinger and Nishant) have met these criteria.
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]Oh, yes, I forgot Matto.  My apologies to him.  He also believes in a Catholic version of the BoD hypothesis.[/font][/size]
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It seems rather commonplace for BoB/BoD to go hand-in-hand with sedevacantism. I don't know any of the latter who are not also adherents of the former. Your post seems to support that too:  as far as I could tell, Arvinger, Nishant and Matto are not sedes.
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It's revealing that no sedes have responded to this.
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I suppose then it's correct, that BoD (especially) and sedevacantism go hand-in-hand.
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Correct?
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Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 23, 2017, 04:08:16 PM
I never said that people should not consult other sources besides Magisterial ones. I only say that when the two are in contradiction, the Magisterial decides the matter. It's quite different from subordinating Magisterial statements to the teachings of Theologians under the guise of "a deeper understanding". BTW, I got that word "mox" from the encyclical online as part of it. I know little about Latin. Whether it means immediately or soon in the modern sense does not matter.What's not Catholic about a person dying and arriving at the Particular Judgment and the Lord judging that there's need to be raised from the dead to be Baptized. Besides, there is no "time" in eternity, whether it's soon or immediately the idea is the same. Death then Judgment.
.I said that there is no reason why they can't be evidence for the necessity of water Baptism. That there is no conflict between Dogma and these stories as you would like to pretend there is. There is, however, conflict between the stories of unbaptized 'martyrs' and Dogma. That's what this all comes down to really. One side uses their stories to show that Baptism is not necessary and the other side uses these stories to show the necessity of Baptism. Unbaptized 'martyrs' is against Dogma as Benedictus Deus shows.
Also, in your mind, are you punishing me by your 'brilliant' replies? All I see is grasping.
Wasn't this whole goat rodeo prompted in response to BoD peeps insisting on using pious stories as "proof", and not asproof contra BoD at all? Distinction fail and punishing the victim/rewaRding the perp?
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 23, 2017, 04:13:50 PM
It is just as easy to speculate that God provided Baptism to St. Emerantiana through an unseen miracle to supply His requisites for salvation, as it is to use our want of knowledge as proof of its dispensability.

What we do not know is not a proof of anything.

If the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.

St. Aiphonsus de Liquori tells us that there were approximately eleven million martyrs in the first three centuries of the Church's history. Out of these eleven million martyrs, and the thousands of others which have been recorded since by various Church historians, there are about ten cases in which the martyrs are reported to have died without baptism. In not one of these cases can we assert or conclude positively that these persons were not baptized.
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There is no one in the Roman Martyrology who is described as most certainly NOT having been baptized, but who was granted salvation anyway. 
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There is no such thing as a non-baptism certificate. 
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In the case of St. Emerentiana, for all we know, as she lay dying her heartfelt desire for baptism may have evoked a miraculous visitation of a saint to baptize her before she died, or perhaps she died, and was raised from the dead and baptized then died again. This has occurred to others in the past, so why not to her? Was she somehow unworthy of such a grace? Is God's providence somehow inadequate in her case but not in others?
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What we do not know is not proof of anything whatsoever. Never has been, never will be.
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Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 23, 2017, 04:17:03 PM
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]Oh, yes, I forgot Matto.  My apologies to him.  He also believes in a Catholic version of the BoD hypothesis.[/font][/size]
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It seems rather commonplace for BoB/BoD to go hand-in-hand with sedevacantism. I don't know any of the latter who are not also adherents of the former. Your post seems to support that too:  as far as I could tell, Arvinger, Nishant and Matto are not sedes.
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It's revealing that no sedes have responded to this.
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I suppose then it's correct, that BoD (especially) and sedevacantism go hand-in-hand.
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Correct?
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I know I that I responded. As dupes are so ridiculous here, Im not about to dumpster dive to see if it is on this thread, or to repeat myself save with a simple "No, one does not necessitate the other"

Speaking of necessity, EXACTLY what WOULD it have revealed had you been correct?
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 24, 2017, 08:14:17 AM
Quote
The seventeenth in the series of Oecuмenical Councils was that of Florence. It was a gathering called to end some longstanding separations of Oriental dissident groups from the true Church. One of its acts was the famed decree for the Jacobites, included in the dogmatic Bull Cantate Domino, issued by Pope Eugenius IV on February 4, 1442. The following paragraph is found in this decree.


(http://file:///C:\Users\gregoryj\AppData\Local\Temp\1\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image002.jpg)It [the sacrosanct Roman Church, established by the voice of Our Lord and Savior] firmly believes, professes, and teaches that none of those who do not exist within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but Jєωs, heretics, and schismatics, can become partakers of eternal life; but that they are going into the everlasting fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they become associated with it (nisi . . . eidem fuerint agregati) before they die. And [it firmly believes, professes, and teaches] that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such value that the Church's sacraments are profitable unto salvation, and that fastings, almsgivings, and the other duties of piety and exercises of the Christian militancy, bring forth eternal rewards only for those who remain within it [the unity of the ecclesiastical body]: and that, however great his almsgiving may be, and even though he might shed his blood for the name of Christ, no one can be saved unless he remains within the embrace and the unity of the Catholic Church. [Denz., 714.]


Actually this declaration of the Cantate Domino simply makes more explicit the lessons brought out in the Fourth Lateran Council and in the Bull Unam Sanctam. First of all, it mentions and classifies those who are outside of the true Church. These include the pagans, who do not accept any part of divine public revelation; the Jєωs, who accept the Old Testament as God's message; the heretics, who accept certain parts of the teaching contained in the New Testament; and finally the schismatics, who have not rejected any portion of the divinely revealed message, but who simply have cut themselves off from communion with the true Church. It insists that none of these people can attain to eternal life unless they enter the true Church before they pass from this world. In issuing this teaching, the Cantate Dominosimply repeated, with a little more explicitness about the individuals who are "outside" the Church, what previous docuмents had already taught about the necessity of the Catholic Church for the attainment of eternal salvation. Fenton

Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Mithrandylan on August 27, 2017, 11:24:42 PM
To whatever extent I implied or otherwise contended that it is contrary to doctrine to contend that a person could be resurrected after Christ's Resurrection and before the General Judgment, I retract.  This is still a lousy proof against BoD, but I have been considering and studying the matter of resurrection in greater detail since it came up, and I am no longer as convinced as I was that it is radically impossible as such.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 27, 2017, 11:47:45 PM
To whatever extent I implied or otherwise contended that it is contrary to doctrine to contend that a person could be resurrected after Christ's Resurrection and before the General Judgment, I retract.  This is still a lousy proof against BoD, but I have been considering and studying the matter of resurrection in greater detail since it came up, and I am no longer as convinced as I was that it is radically impossible as such.
Thumbs up for rigor, integrity, and honesty, regardless of remaining points of contention. 

For what it is worth and strictly speaking, I don't see either, pro/con, being proof of anything at least in a directly theological sense.

If otherwise, then please someone show me/us where pious stories are material, at least directly, for theological inquiry.

The do have evidentiary value as to what was/n't generally believed at least at a certain time and place, no?
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 28, 2017, 08:29:50 AM
Roman Martyrology

January 23: At Rome, St. Emerentiana, Virgin and Martyr, who was stoned by the heathen while still a catechumen, when she was praying at the tomb of St. Agnes, whose foster-sister she was.

April 12: At Braga, in Portugal, St. Victor, Martyr, who, while still yet a catechumen, refused to worship an idol, and confessed Christ Jesus with great constancy, and so after many torments, he merited to be baptized in his own blood, his head being cut off.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Merry on August 29, 2017, 09:53:18 PM
The world would be a much better place if there were no schismatics, sodomites, feeneyites, pedophiles, heretics or apostates.   - Lover of Truth


So, really, Lover of Truth, putting "Feeneyites" in with SODOMITES?  PEDODPHILES?  

You really are a case.  May God forgive you.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on August 30, 2017, 02:27:33 PM
The world would be a much better place if there were no schismatics, sodomites, feeneyites, pedophiles, heretics or apostates.   - Lover of Truth


So, really, Lover of Truth, putting "Feeneyites" in with SODOMITES?  PEDODPHILES?  

You really are a case.  May God forgive you.
Heretics are worse than perverts.  May God forgive you.  Besides God allows Feeneyites to exist and good can be brought from this fact.  For instance one can actually look at what the Church teaches and gain a better understanding of what the Church teaches and what she does not because of the Feeneyite heresy. 
Thanks for the prayers.  They are much needed.  I will say an Ave for you right now.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Ladislaus on August 30, 2017, 03:15:53 PM
Heretics are worse than perverts.

So says Lover of Pelagius.

Of course your statement is true in the abstarct.  But the problem is that YOU are in fact the heretic.  That's like a gαy man calling a straight man perverted.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Merry on August 30, 2017, 03:18:46 PM
The man of calumny  - right, LoT??  How about the Monsignor you have disparaged?
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: DZ PLEASE on August 30, 2017, 03:34:11 PM
That's like a gαy man calling a straight man perverted.
Given time, this will be the case. It probably wouldn't take much effort to find examples of this occurring in isolation. 

In a roundabout way, isn't this the case already? 

The "pope" speaks of Catholics(?) breeding "...like rabbits."

According to many, for various reasons, and I'll bet some of you "rabbit" parents out there have gotten the stank eye at least once, having kids is some kind of "sin" against society and "Gaia" while they're all inclusive of the Village People. 

Tacit now, explicit is on its way.

Anyway, speaking of "rabbits", I'm on their driveway now.
Title: Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 06, 2017, 12:26:44 PM

Quote
This is plain in both the first and the second parts of the teaching on this subject set forth in the Cantate Domino. The first part asserts that the various classes of individuals "outside" the Catholic Church not only cannot become partakers of eternal life, but also that "they are going into the everlasting fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels" unless they become united to the Church before they pass from this world. In this assertion, which, incidentally, has been designated as "rigorous" by opponents of the Church and by some badly instructed Catholics. Pope Eugenius IV merely took cognizance of the reality of Our Lord's work of redemption. Fenton