Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.  (Read 16392 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2017, 10:47:56 AM »
No takers on the following question:

If you were given the choice of martyrdom before baptism or denying Christ so you could get baptized which would you chose?

Both choices reveal your unbelief of divine providence and God's Omniscience and Omnipotence. Your unbelief is the root of your obsession with the subject of salvation of 

Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2017, 10:56:08 AM »
Both choices reveal your unbelief of divine providence and God's Omniscience and Omnipotence. Your unbelief is the root of your obsession with the subject of salvation of
Your choosing not to answer is even more revealing.  


Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2017, 11:08:48 AM »
.
I'm not a Latin reader, so I don't know anything about "mox"; a few dictionaries I've consulted give the primary meaning as being soon in the respect of being next in time or position (which makes perfect sense, given the dogma-- it's distinguishable from the "soon" that you say to a five year old who asks if you're there yet).  But shouldn't the dogma speak for itself, rather than having us have to rely on dictionaries to understand it?  Dictionaries aren't infallible.  If the Church teaches primarily-- or only-- through solemn definitions, then it follows that she, being capable and divinely equipped to execute her mission, speaks clearly in solemn definitions.  Right?  If you're finding an ambiguity of language, that's your problem.
.
So, we're back to a problem of methodology.  Now, for those of us whose methodology allows and encourages us to learn from the Church's ordinary teaching, we find out that the usual translation is immediately simply because the doctrine is that the particular judgment occurs immediately after death, with the sending to Heaven/Purgatory or Hell immediately or instantaneously to the judgment (Parente, 1953).  We might, in a manner of speaking, say that such souls do not ascend or descend immediately, but only because they must be judged "first."  Not because they can be preserved in a stasis or slumber pending judgment and punishment or reward.
.
Interestingly enough, GJC's contention (which you are repeating here) of some stasis or slumber is positively condemned; it's not just a matter of being very difficult to reconcile with Benedictus Deus or any of the other creeds that reinforce the immediacy of Heaven or Hell after death, but "the soul's slumber" is an idea that was tossed around and already condemned (McHugh, 1910).  
.
So, you see?  I am "learning from man." :D 
.
I agree that you don't need these pious stories as proof of your conclusion.  So stop defending them.

Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2017, 11:48:23 AM »
I am not finding ambiguity, only misleading translation, at least try to be accurate. If "mox" means soon, then your interpretation that the soul goes, at the moment of brain death, to it's final place, may be wrong. We do not know how long or what happens between the point where we say "hey...he's dead" and the point of no return. We do KNOW that there is no salvation for those not Sacramentally Baptized. So, if these stories are true there is no conflict between Benedictus Deus and these stories being evidence of the necessity of water Baptism.

Also, am I to assume that you have given up the salvation of unbaptized "martyrs" since you didn't address it. Also, why are you even reading these Dogmas? You only refer to men for further interpretation.
But to defend your heresy you are going to great lengths depending on extraordinary means as the saving norm.  Having one come back to life just so he can get baptized.  Not that complicated.  

Do you understand the difference between a relative necessity of means and an absolute or intrinsic necessity of means?  The difference between the necessity of water and the necessity of faith for salvation to be possible?  Say you do.   

Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #69 on: August 23, 2017, 12:10:45 PM »
Your choosing not to answer is even more revealing.  
No your question is moronic, only a person that does not believe in divine providence would ask such a puerile question.
Your unbelief is the cause of your illness.