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Author Topic: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.  (Read 6861 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2017, 11:58:40 AM »
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    • It is just as easy to speculate that God provided Baptism to St. Emerantiana through an unseen miracle to supply His requisites for salvation, as it is to use our want of knowledge as proof of its dispensability. What we do not know is not a proof of anything.

    If the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.

    St. Aiphonsus de Liquori tells us that there were approximately eleven million martyrs in the first three centuries of the Church's history. Out of these eleven million martyrs, and the thousands of others which have been recorded since by various Church historians, there are about ten cases in which the martyrs are reported to have died without baptism. In not one of these cases can we assert or conclude positively that these persons were not baptized.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #46 on: August 21, 2017, 12:14:01 PM »
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    • It's unbelievable.  We've got people here who are implying the non-eternity of Hell, the possibility of more than two eternal final places, the possibility of not going immediately to Hell, the possibility of soul and body being reunited before the general judgment, and now to top it off, we have the sacrament of baptism "through an unseen miracle."
    .
    Kids, this is what confirmation bias does to you.  You turn around, look, and all of a sudden you've toppled half a dozen truths on the way to retaining your pet theory.
    .
    Those of you with children who are first communion age hopefully recall, if you didn't already, that a sacrament is a visible sign.  "Invisible baptism" is not baptism at all.
    .
    Just abandon this ridiculous proof, already.  Y'all are going to keep reading Trent without any deference to the catechisms, popes, theologians, saints, or any authoritative teaching mechanism of the Church anyways, that's where your bread and butter is, so stick to that.  Those "on the fence" who see you turning the most basic tenets of Catholic theology and doctrine on their head to retain your position aren't going to be won over, that's for sure.
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #47 on: August 21, 2017, 12:19:58 PM »
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    • What we do not know is not a proof of anything, yet if the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #48 on: August 21, 2017, 12:32:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: MyrnaM on August 17, 2017, 09:37:16 AM
    Strange how all these pious stories are considered infallible, but the stories that tell a different slant are not worth the words printed since they are "not infallible" as the Benedict Center or Diamond Bros. see it.  

    :facepalm:
    You were down thumbed 6 times, a sure sign the feeneyites cannot refute you.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #49 on: August 21, 2017, 12:35:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 17, 2017, 09:58:58 AM
    Quite the contrary, we don't consider any of these "infallible".  You, on the other hand, present your stories as dogmatic proof when they're not.  These are just illustrations of how God does arrange matters, sometimes even miraculously, to bring the Sacrament to His elect.
    We present authoritative and infallible TEACHINGS from approved sources united on the issue while you settled for STORIES.  You put more weight on stories than teaching if the teaching goes against what your monumental intellectual pride wishes to believe.

    Do you believe you would be deprived of the Beatific Vision of you were martyred before you were baptized?  Do you believe your salvation could be called into question.  
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #50 on: August 21, 2017, 12:36:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 17, 2017, 12:32:25 PM
    What is "the other side"?

    Our side believes that dogmas are the final word on a subject of prior confusion. We simply quote the clear dogmas as they are written.

    The "other side" believes that the theologians and Catholic writers interpret dogma, or at least they use that mix of theologians and other writers to conclude:

    that for instance these two dogmas mean that Jєωs, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhist....etc can be saved by their belief in a rewarder god:

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
     

    Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …

    Of course, to our side that conclusion is insane.
    The Catholic side accepts EENS and BOD.  The non-Catholic side rejects one or the other or both. 
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #51 on: August 21, 2017, 12:38:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 17, 2017, 12:52:51 PM
    On the contrary, I look at the entire body of evidence objectively.  I've never condemned anyone for believing in BoD.  I've condemned Pelagianism, denial of EENS, modernist ecclesiology, and heretical denial of Trent's dogmatic teaching that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.  I've taken note of the fact that many theologians believe in BoD, but it's clear from the evidence that there's no proof for this opinion and that it's just their personal opinion, an opinion with which I disagree.  I have no issues with someone believing in BoD provided that they do not simultaneously undermine EENS, promote heretical ecclesiology, advocate Pelagianism, and deny the necessity of the Sacraments (even mockingly deriding them in language identical to that of the Protestants).  So far only two BoDers on CI (Arvinger and Nishant) have met these criteria.
    You trust yourself more than the theologians which is bad enough.  But also more than the Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes.  Can't you just be satisfied with being a private heretic?  Why do you have to blab your nonsense as if you are some sort of authority?
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #52 on: August 21, 2017, 12:39:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: DZ PLEASE on August 17, 2017, 01:48:20 PM
    Your credibility just vanished in a puff of childish. It does save further wasted time, so thanks for that.
    Talk about the kettle calling the snow black.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #53 on: August 21, 2017, 12:42:13 PM »
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    • Quote from: Neil Obstat on August 17, 2017, 06:52:11 PM

     :barf:
    It seems rather commonplace for BoB/BoD to go hand in hand with sedevacantism. I
     :barf:
    :barf:  What a puke-worthy sentiment. :barf:  Talking about subjective riff-raff.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #54 on: August 21, 2017, 12:44:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on August 18, 2017, 04:54:33 AM
    I believe it's when someone believes that it's the Sacrament that saves in voto as Ladislaus puts it. They say that you need the sacrament but you can receive the Sacrament by actually desiring it. It's still BOD though and not taught by the Church.
    Do you really believe we teach converts that it is up to them whether they want to receive the sacrament or just desire it?  You are intellectually dishonest at best.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #55 on: August 21, 2017, 12:47:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even Seven on August 18, 2017, 05:58:14 AM
    HAHA. It's complicated...unlike Catholic Dogma.
    The Dogma of the Holy Trinity cannot be fully understood.  It is a great mystery not merely something complicated but can be fully understood.  Should we doubt this then as well? 
    EENS apart from BOD is complicated as we then have to reject Trent or pretend it taught the opposite of what it taught.  Now that is complicating things. 
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #56 on: August 21, 2017, 12:50:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: GJC on August 20, 2017, 06:19:05 PM
    It is quite obvious that according to the Providence of God these individuals were to be saved, and though a sleep, not judged.
    And clear writing on the wall for those who carelessly follow those modernist bishops and priests that claim that spiritual rebirth can occur without the sacrament of Baptism.
    :facepalm: Souls are judged at the moment of death.

    This used to be basic stuff before Feeneyites crashed the Catholic party.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #57 on: August 21, 2017, 12:51:52 PM »
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    • You really can smell the irony…
    Quote from: Mithrandylan on August 21, 2017, 12:14:01 PM
    It's unbelievable.  We've got people here who are implying the non-eternity of Hell, the possibility of more than two eternal final places, the possibility of not going immediately to Hell, the possibility of soul and body being reunited before the general judgment, and now to top it off, we have the sacrament of baptism "through an unseen miracle."
    .
    Kids, this is what confirmation bias does to you.  You turn around, look, and all of a sudden you've toppled half a dozen truths on the way to retaining your pet theory.
    .
    Those of you with children who are first communion age hopefully recall, if you didn't already, that a sacrament is a visible sign.  "Invisible baptism" is not baptism at all.
    .
    Just abandon this ridiculous proof, already.  Y'all are going to keep reading Trent without any deference to the catechisms, popes, theologians, saints, or any authoritative teaching mechanism of the Church anyways, that's where your bread and butter is, so stick to that.  Those "on the fence" who see you turning the most basic tenets of Catholic theology and doctrine on their head to retain your position aren't going to be won over, that's for sure.
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    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #58 on: August 21, 2017, 01:00:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 21, 2017, 12:32:07 PM
    You were down thumbed 6 times, a sure sign the feeneyites cannot refute you.
    Kinda like a pair of old slippers after a while. Of course if this were so sure, certain other conclusion hoppers would be vindicated as well.

    Hey, I MUST be going gangbusters as well. "I'd like to thank the Academy…"
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    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
    « Reply #59 on: August 21, 2017, 01:06:52 PM »
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    • Quote
    Kinda like a pair of old slippers after a while. Of course if this were so sure, certain other conclusion hoppers would be vindicated as well.

    Hey, I MUST be going gangbusters as well. "I'd like to thank the Academy…"

    The world would be a much better place if there were no schismatics, sodomites, feeneyites, pedophiles, heretics or apostates.   
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church
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