Author Topic: Pelagianism (Read 2388 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #15 on:** May 17, 2016, 02:56:11 PM »

And the heretical premise behind all of BoD is the notion that God can be impeded by "impossibility" from bringing the Sacrament of Baptism to His elect.

Quote from: St. Augustine

If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: “We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ.” Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge? You see how many weighty remarks might be made on this subject; but I am restrained by the fact of having treated on it a little while ago, so that I content myself with this brief and passing admonition.

Quote from: St. Augustine

Perish the thought that a person predestined to eternal life could be allowed to end this life without the sacrament of the mediator.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #16 on:** May 17, 2016, 03:07:42 PM »

St. Augustine is the only Father who is clearly on record as floating the notion of BoD. St. Ambrose's statement was more ambiguous, and could easily be taken as a reference to BoB. Several Fathers rejected BoD out of hand.

But even St. Augustine, in his later anti-Pelagian days, eventually rejected BoD as leading inexorably to Pelagianism. He's on record with some of the strongest anti-BoD statements on record.

http://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #17 on:** May 18, 2016, 09:02:10 AM »

The Church does not simply teach one can only be lost through mortal sin. One must be culpable of mortal sin to suffer the pains of Hell. One cannot obtain the Beatific Vision unless cleansed of Original Sin which is done through sacramental Baptism or when this is impossible (through inculpable ignorance, death etc.) through baptism of desire or blood and these can only be obtained by non-members who have a supernatural Faith and perfect charity.

Do you deny that a person with supernatural Faith and perfect charity is in a state of sanctifying grace?

Do you believe it possible for a person who dies in the state of sanctifying grace to be deprived of the Beatific Vision?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #18 on:** May 18, 2016, 01:06:47 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Heresy

One must be culpable of mortal sin to suffer the pains of Hell.

Indeed, that is exactly what Pius IX taught. But then you twist Pius IX into Pelagianism by pretending this passage means that no one who isn't culpable of mortal sin is not saved.

Quote from: Lover of Heresy

Do you deny that a person with supernatural Faith and perfect charity is in a state of sanctifying grace?

What are you talking about? That's a tautology. By definition having supernatural faith and perfect charity is being in a state of sanctifying grace. Your issue is with the next point.

Quote from: Lover of Heresy

Do you believe it possible for a person who dies in the state of sanctifying grace to be deprived of the Beatific Vision?

Yes, I do believe it possible. In fact, we know that it happened to St. Joseph. What Father Feeney states is that God will not allow such a one, someone who perseveres in that state of grace until death to actually die without the Sacrament of Baptism. I hold a differing view, that in the new dispensation no one can enter the state of sanctifying grace (justification) without the Sacrament of Baptism.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #19 on:** May 18, 2016, 01:28:32 PM »

Saint Joseph is deprived of the Beatific Vision?

I'm supposing Jesus baptized him in Limbo?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #20 on:** May 18, 2016, 02:06:55 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Heresy

Saint Joseph is deprived of the Beatific Vision?

He WAS. There's something else necessary to receive the Beatific Vision besides being in a state of justification, that which was supplied by Our Lord's Passion, and that which is missing to all those who have not received the Sacrament of Baptism. Your allegation was that dying in a state of sanctifying grace = access to the Beatific Vision. St. Joseph proves your assertion to be false.

Quote from: Lover of Heresy

I'm supposing Jesus baptized him in Limbo?

Actually, several Church Fathers posited that God raised the OT just back to life in order to baptize them. But, then again, these Fathers actually believed that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #21 on:** May 18, 2016, 02:33:22 PM »

Show me. From the one who says Doctors, Saints, Father and Popes can't be trusted when they disagree with you on the issue.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #22 on:** May 19, 2016, 08:37:19 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Show me. From the one who says Doctors, Saints, Father and Popes can't be trusted when they disagree with you on the issue.

And yet the Church Fathers who disagree with you, and rejected BoD, cannot be trusted? You demand that we "trust" only those authorities who agree with you. I "trust" the later anti-Pelagian Augustine, St. John Chrysostom, St. Gregory nαzιanzen, St. Fulgentius, etc. when it comes to BoD.

NO AUTHORITY (whether Magisterial or a Doctor) has EVER taught that those without explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation can be saved. Not until the spurious Suprema Haec. You demand that we "trust" the "authority" of St. Thomas on BoD but then refuse to "trust" the same when he taught explicit faith. You, sir, are a complete hypocrite.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #23 on:** May 19, 2016, 09:28:53 AM »

Show me where Jesus spent His 40 hours in Limbo baptizing all the good souls that ever existed with water.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #24 on:** May 19, 2016, 09:30:46 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Show me where Jesus spent His 40 hours in Limbo baptizing all the good souls that ever existed with water.

This was a speculative theory held by a few Church Fathers. It cannot be "shown". In fact, more Church Fathers believed this than who believed in BoD. So that must make it dogma.

Point is that the Church Fathers SO deeply believed that Baptism was necessary for salvation that they speculated along these lines. You on the other hand consider Baptism to be unnecessary.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #25 on:** May 19, 2016, 10:59:11 AM »

I'm waiting for you to show it.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #26 on:** May 19, 2016, 11:09:44 AM »

I misread your comment thing you said it can be shown. You "refute" Church teaching with ipse dixits. Meanwhile the Church canonized unbatpized Saints.

It is amazing. It can't be shown that Jesus Baptized the world in Limbo but you claim it. But it can be shown the Church Fathers DID believe in BOD yet you disagree. I wish you could see your position and "rationale" from an objective perspective. Why are you so desperate to hold fast to novelty?

Isn't tiring to have to refute all hundreds of Church authorities who have disagreed with your preference throughout the ages? Perhaps one day you will have the grace and common sense to realize that they are right and you are wrong. Just maybe.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #27 on:** May 20, 2016, 08:50:22 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Cushing

It can't be shown that Jesus Baptized the world in Limbo but you claim it.

You're retarded. You can't even comprehend basic English, and yet you claim to pontificate authoritatively on theological matters. I "claimed" no such thing. What part of SOME Church Fathers SPECULATED about this doesn't make sense to you? I brought this up to illustrate how much did they believe in the necessity of Baptism for salvation.

Quote from: Lover of Pelagius

But it can be shown the Church Fathers DID believe in BOD yet you disagree.

You're diabolically insane. I have REPEATEDLY shown that the only Church Father who unambiguously (yet temporarily) believed in BoD was St. Augustine. About a half dozen Church Fathers explicitly REJECT the notion of BoD. Your insanity causes you to accept into your little pea brain only that information which happens to back your own heretical notions ... a cognitive dissonance caused by bad will. Run along now. You're in way over your head.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #28 on:** May 20, 2016, 08:51:35 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

I'm waiting for you to show it.

I'm waiting for you to actually accept the dogma EENS and the dogma that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #29 on:** May 20, 2016, 09:38:21 AM »

I fully accept EENS. There is not exception to it. And I accept that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation, as Aquinas, Liguori, Pius XII et al. accept it, not as you "accept" it.