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Author Topic: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology  (Read 16317 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2021, 03:41:02 PM »
St. Hippolytus of Rome, Discourse on the Holy Theophany (written shortly after A.D. 200).
Quote
The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and He, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the breath (spirit) of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead.
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For he who comes down in faith to the laver of regeneration, and renounces the devil, and joins himself to Christ; ... he comes up from the baptism brilliant as the sun, flashing forth the beams of righteousness, and, which is indeed the chief thing, he returns a son of God and joint-heir with Christ. 

St. Hippolytus also links adoption as a son of God to being a "joint-heir with Christ" after the resurrection from the dead.  So the physical aspect of washing the flesh is key.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2021, 04:10:48 PM »
St. Cyril of Jerusalem, mid-4th century, Third Catechetical Lecture:
Quote
For since man is of twofold nature, soul and body, the purification also is twofold, the one incorporeal for the incorporeal part, and the other bodily for the body: the water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul;
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When going down, therefore, into the water, think not of the bare element, but look for salvation by the power of the Holy Ghost: for without both you can not possibly be made perfect.  It is not I that say this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter: for He says, Except a man be born anew (and He adds the words) of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Neither does he that is baptized with water, but not found worthy of the Spirit, receive the grace in perfection; nor if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but receive not the seal by water, shall he enter into the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine, for it is Jesus who has declared it: and here is the proof of the statement from Holy Scripture. Cornelius was a just man, who was honoured with a vision of Angels, and had set up his prayers and alms-deeds as a good memorial before God in heaven. Peter came, and the Spirit was poured out upon them that believed, and they spoke with other tongues, and prophesied: and after the grace of the Spirit the Scripture says that Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ; in order that, the soul having been born again by faith, the body also might by the water partake of the grace. (sections 3-4)

If any man receive not Baptism, he has no salvation; except only Martyrs, who even without the water receive the kingdom.

Notice again how St. Cyril speaks about the two principal effects of Baptism, 1) the grace of perfection, the "Holy Spirit" aspect and 2) "the seal by water".

He says that if the soul is unworthy, he does not receive the grace of the Sacrament.  But if he is not washed in water, he does not receive the seal.

Notice he says that nor does a man (even virtuous, i.e. not unworthy, i.e. has the proper dispositions) who does not "receive the seal by water ... enter into the Kingdom of heaven."  It cannot get any more clear than that.  

He states ABSOLUTELY CLEARLY that without the seal of water (the Sacramental character) even a person with the proper dispositions cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

He does state that martyrs are an exception ... but he does not explain why.  As a 5th century manual declares, that's because some of the Fathers considered martyrdom to have all the elements of the Sacrament.  St. Ambrose seems to disagree with that part.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2021, 04:21:48 PM »
St. Gregory of Nyssa, On the Baptism of Christ (mid 4th century):
Quote
Let us however, if it seems well, persevere in enquiring more fully and more minutely concerning Baptism, starting, as from the fountain-head, from the Scriptural declaration, “Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ” Why are both named, and why is not the Spirit alone accounted sufficient for the completion of Baptism? Man, as we know full well, is compound, not simple: and therefore the cognate and similar medicines are assigned for healing to him who is twofold and conglomerate:— for his visible body, water, the sensible element—for his soul, which we cannot see, the Spirit invisible, invoked by faith, present unspeakably.

St. Gregory of Nyssa CLEARLY states here that the "Spirit alone [is not] accounted sufficient for the completion of Baptism" ... because, as other Fathers also answered, human beings are both body and soul.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2021, 08:06:41 PM »
To channel my inner Croix, I applaud Ladislaus for these quotes, and declare:  “Church Fathers...for...the...win!”
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2021, 09:41:06 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 24, 2021, 08:06:41 PM
To channel my inner Croix, I applaud Ladislaus for these quotes, and declare:  “Church Fathers...for...the...win!”

Yes, it couldn't be any clearer.  All the Church Fathers distinguish multiple aspects of the Sacrament:  the "washing" (forgiveness of sin) and the "seal/illumination/crowning/glory".  Some distinguish the remission of temporal punishment for sin into a third aspect, which they call "grace".  In any case, while a few held that some washing or forgiveness of sin could happen without the seal, they indisputably hold that the "seal/illumination/crowning/glory/character" is required for entry into the Kingdom, ultimate salvation.

Some of them held bob to be the only exception (while ruling out bod), but they don't explain why.  Yet St. Cyprian and that 5th century theology manual hold that it's because they receive the SACRAMENT through being washed in blood rather than water, but that all the sacred elements (i.e. matter and form) are present in martyrdom.  St. Ambrose disagrees and says that even martyred catechumens, while "washed" are not "crowned".

So a bod that suffices for salvation is UNANIMOUSLY REJECTED by the Church Fathers, while bob is disputed, and in the case of those who accept it, generally considered to be THE Sacrament of Baptism received in an extraordinary manner.
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