Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 14

Author Topic: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology  (Read 16339 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2021, 04:55:12 PM »
Quote from: Matto on March 19, 2021, 04:11:33 PM
My favorite story about the Catholic Encyclopedia was that it was given to Pope Pius X and he read it and after he read it he showed it to someone and said one word, "Modernism", and threw it in the trash. I don't know if the story is true, but I think it is a good story. An old poster here, I believe it was Ambrose, said the story was apocryphal but I not see it proven it either way.

Right, I heard the story from Bishop Williamson when I was at the seminary, and it sounds like he believed it to be true.  Indeed, there are some very Modernistic articles in there, especially with regard to the nature of Sacred Scripture ... the first casualty of most Modernists.
Logged

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2021, 07:29:11 AM »
On another quote, Fr. Feeney said he didn't believe adults go to Limbo.  But St. Ambrose spoke of martyred catechumens who died without the Sacrament as having been washed (of their sins) although not crowned.  So where do these martyred catechumens end up ... in hell?  Even though they have had their sins washed?  Lacking person sin (and the punishment due to it) is precisely what Limbo is all about.  Matto pointed out that Dante put some adults in Limbo.  Not that Dante was a theologian, but I guess he reflects some theological thinking prevalent in his day.  I don't see anything contrary to Church doctrine in positing adults in Limbo.

Now, could some of these Catechumens have been actually baptized by having the angels pronounce the words of Baptism, as St. Cyprian believed and was also taught in that 5th century theological manual?  Perhaps, but St. Ambrose doesn't seem to believe so.  It's speculation, really, after the point of what has been revealed.  And what has been revealed is that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation, even if not for justification.

Logged

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2021, 02:26:22 PM »
St. John Chrysostom:
Quote
Weep for the unbelievers; weep for those who differ in nowise from them, those who depart hence without the illumination, without the seal!  They indeed deserve our wailing, they deserve our groans; they are outside the Palace, with the culprits, with the condemned: for, ‘Verily I say unto you, Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.  (Homily III. On Phil. 1:1-20)

He clearly teaches here that there's no entry into the Kingdom, the Palace, without the seal (Greek Patristic term for the character of Baptism), which he clearly ties to and equates with the "illumination".  Illumination is related to the Beatific Vision, which the Church has defined with the term "lumen gloriae" (light of glory).  St. John Chrysostom ties the Beatific Vision to the character of Baptism.

Dogmatic Definition of the Council of Vienne:
Quote
To enable it to see God, the intellect of the blessed is supernaturally perfected by the light of glory (lumen gloriae).

St. John ties this illumination of the intellect to the "seal" or character of Baptism.
Logged

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2021, 02:32:46 PM »
So, as a result, St. John Chrysostom rejects Baptism of Desire (in the sense of providing salvation or entry into the Kingdom):

Quote
For the Catechumen is a stranger to the Faithful… One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes… Since then we have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?… Let us then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above… for if it should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our portion will be none other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble. (Hom. in Io. 25, 3)

Several theologians later described the character of Baptism in the same way, as enabling "citizenship" in the Kingdom.  But perhaps God issues Green Cards to departed Catechumens?  Not so, according to St. John Chrysostom.
Logged

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2021, 02:39:55 PM »
from The Shepherd of Hermas ... early 2nd century Patristic source:

Quote
They were obliged,” he answered, “to ascend through water in order that they might be made alive; for, unless they laid aside the deadness of their life, they could not in any other way enter into the kingdom of God. … For,” he continued, “before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive. And to them, accordingly, was this seal preached, and they made use of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God.”

Again, the "seal" (aka character) is required to "enter into the Kingdom of God".  That's another way the character is described, as essentially branding the likeness of the Son of God onto the soul "before a man bears the name of the Son of God".
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 ... 14
« previous next »