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Author Topic: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology  (Read 6756 times)

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Offline forlorn

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Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2021, 02:52:23 PM »
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  • Still though, if all these doctors and saints are hinting at an adult limbo, there should surely be quotes from at least some of them explicitly saying it, right?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #31 on: March 19, 2021, 03:12:00 PM »
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  • Still though, if all these doctors and saints are hinting at an adult limbo, there should surely be quotes from at least some of them explicitly saying it, right?

    Why do you think I call it Ladislausian soteriology?

    I'm building the case from the Fathers and from Sacred Scripture and applying various theological arguments.  What do you think that these doctors, saints, and theologians do?

    Father Feeney came the closest, but he did not take the next steps.

    I do not deny the existence of a BoB or even perhaps a BoD, but I apply the teaching of St. Ambrose and St. Gregory nαzιanzen, and Sacred Scripture, and an understand of what the character of Baptism does and what is role or function is in soteriology.

    Even BoD proponents agree that BoD/BoB only supply the one effect of the Sacrament, namely, the remission of sins.  It does not supply the character of Baptism nor does it render the subject a member of the Church.

    St. Ambrose refers to this as a "washing" without "crowning" ... even for martyred catechumens.

    I hold that the crowning, the seal, what St. Gregory nαzιanzen calls "the glory" are essential to the Beatific Vision, which cannot be had without them.

    Consequently, a martyred catechumen would have all his sins washed but still not enter the Beatific Vision.

    ergo, an adult in Limbo

    Now, the reason that unbaptized infants go to Limbo is because they have no actual sin.  But a martyred catechumen would have his actual sin washed away.

    Not only that, but I hold that a martyred catechumen would have even a greater degree of natural happiness than an infant who died without Baptism.


    Offline Matto

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #32 on: March 19, 2021, 03:13:17 PM »
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  • adult limbo
    I believe Dante put Saladin in adult limbo with the poets and the philosophers. 
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #33 on: March 19, 2021, 03:22:00 PM »
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  • In Mark 16:16, Our Lord says that those who believe AND are baptized will be saved, but that those who don't believe will be condemned.

    What about those who believe but are not baptized?

    He remains silent about them and does not reveal what happens to them.  But they are neither among the saved, nor among the condemned.
    They go to a hell where they do not get beaten as much by the devils, a place like the swamps of Panama in the 1700's, where Spanish explorers would not even go close to shore because they would be eaten alive by the jejen (no see'ums, an almost invisible gnat who's bites itch more than Mosquito bites). No air conditioning, no mosquito screens. People lived there though.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #34 on: March 19, 2021, 03:22:07 PM »
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  • I believe Dante put Saladin in adult limbo with the poets and the philosophers.

    Indeed he did.

    Although the following is not a theological article, it states "When Dante Alighieri compiled his great medieval Who's Who of heroes and villains, the Divine Comedy, the highest a non-Christian could climb was Limbo."

    http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,36516,00.html


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #35 on: March 19, 2021, 03:26:40 PM »
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  • I'm reading from the 16th century Dominican (scholastic) theologian Melchior Cano, who distinguishes also (as did Fr. Feeney) between justification and salvation, and he believes that a certain state of justification can be arrived at through natural exertion, whereas salvation requires supernatural faith (he doesn't discuss Baptism as much as faith).

    De Lugo, as pointed out by XavierSem, listed 3 different opinions which all revolved around the different permutations of justification and salvation.

    So Father Feeney did NOT invent that distinction.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #36 on: March 19, 2021, 03:33:49 PM »
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  • All the pieces to the puzzle are out there, and they fit, not only together, but perfectly with Sacred Scripture.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #37 on: March 19, 2021, 04:05:18 PM »
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  • Catholic Encyclopedia article on Heaven (see the bolded):

    Quote
    (2) It is of faith that the beatific vision is supernatural, that it transcends the powers and claims of created nature, of angels as well as of men. The opposite doctrine of the Beghards and Beguines was condemned (1311) by the Council of Vienne (Denz., n. 475 — old, n. 403), and likewise a similar error of Baius by Pius V (Denz., n. 1003 — old, n. 883).
    ...
    (3) To enable it to see God, the intellect of the blessed is supernaturally perfected by the light of glory (lumen gloriae). This was defined by the Council of Vienne in 1311 (Denz., n. 475; old, n. 403); and it is also evident from the supernatural character of the beatific vision. For the beatific vision transcends the natural powers of the intellect; therefore, to see God the intellect stands in need of some supernatural strength, not merely transient, but permanent as the vision itself. This permanent invigoration is called the "light of glory", because it enables the souls in glory to see God with their intellect, just as material light enables our bodily eyes to see corporeal objects.

    Recall how St. Gregory nαzιanzen says that those who are not bad enough to be punished are not necessarily good enough to receive "glory" (in a line reminiscent of Bilbo Baggins in The Hobbit).


    Offline Matto

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #38 on: March 19, 2021, 04:11:33 PM »
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  • Catholic Encyclopedia article on Heaven
    My favorite story about the Catholic Encyclopedia was that it was given to Pope Pius X and he read it and after he read it he showed it to someone and said one word, "Modernism", and threw it in the trash. I don't know if the story is true, but I think it is a good story. An old poster here, I believe it was Ambrose, said the story was apocryphal but I not see it proven it either way.
    R.I.P.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #39 on: March 19, 2021, 04:53:20 PM »
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  • Catholic Encyclopedia article on "Character":

    Quote
    The character imparted by these [three] sacraments is something distinct from the grace imparted by them.
    ...
    All theologians affirm that the sacramental character is not a mere external denomination; and practically all are agreed that it is a sort of quality or state made inherent in the soul. Those, such as Scotus, who say that it is a relation (to Christ) mean that it is a relation with a real fundamentum, or ground and whether we say that it is a relation having a ground in the soul, or a state or quality involving a relation, seems to signify quite the same thing, the difference being only in the expression. The category of quality being divided by Aristotelean and Scholastic philosophers into four kinds, theologians for the most part classify the sacramental character as something akin to the genus of quality called power.
    ...
    Now, every created perfection is a shadow of some perfection of the Deity, and therefore assimilation to Christ even in His human nature is assimilation to God. And as the Son is described in the Epistle to the Hebrews as "the Character of the Father's substance", hence the sacramental character has been defined as "a distinction impressed by the Eternal Character [the Son] upon the created trinity [i.e. the soul with the intellect and the will] sealing it into a likeness (secundum imaginem consignans) unto the Trinity which creates and anew-creates (Trinitati creanti et recreanti)." For theology distinguishes in the soul

    --the natural image and likeness of God;
    --the likeness produced by sanctifying grace and faith, hope, and charity;
    --the likeness not moral, but, so to say, legal and official, produced by the sacramental character.

    This character is a power, a potency, otherwise known as a faculty.  But it is no natural faculty, but a supernatural faculty.  What this faculty does is to allow for the soul to experience the supernatural vision of God.  Just as natural vision is a faculty, so is supernatural vision, but it's something that the soul lacks by nature and is, I argue, supplied by the character of Baptism.  It also conforms the soul to the likeness of Christ so that we become sons of God, adopted into the family or household of the Holy Trinity.  Without this faculty provided by the character of Baptism, we are incapable of beholding God as He is, i.e., incapable of the Beatific Vision.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #40 on: March 19, 2021, 04:55:12 PM »
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  • My favorite story about the Catholic Encyclopedia was that it was given to Pope Pius X and he read it and after he read it he showed it to someone and said one word, "Modernism", and threw it in the trash. I don't know if the story is true, but I think it is a good story. An old poster here, I believe it was Ambrose, said the story was apocryphal but I not see it proven it either way.

    Right, I heard the story from Bishop Williamson when I was at the seminary, and it sounds like he believed it to be true.  Indeed, there are some very Modernistic articles in there, especially with regard to the nature of Sacred Scripture ... the first casualty of most Modernists.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #41 on: March 21, 2021, 07:29:11 AM »
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  • On another quote, Fr. Feeney said he didn't believe adults go to Limbo.  But St. Ambrose spoke of martyred catechumens who died without the Sacrament as having been washed (of their sins) although not crowned.  So where do these martyred catechumens end up ... in hell?  Even though they have had their sins washed?  Lacking person sin (and the punishment due to it) is precisely what Limbo is all about.  Matto pointed out that Dante put some adults in Limbo.  Not that Dante was a theologian, but I guess he reflects some theological thinking prevalent in his day.  I don't see anything contrary to Church doctrine in positing adults in Limbo.

    Now, could some of these Catechumens have been actually baptized by having the angels pronounce the words of Baptism, as St. Cyprian believed and was also taught in that 5th century theological manual?  Perhaps, but St. Ambrose doesn't seem to believe so.  It's speculation, really, after the point of what has been revealed.  And what has been revealed is that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation, even if not for justification.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #42 on: March 24, 2021, 02:26:22 PM »
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  • St. John Chrysostom:
    Quote
    Weep for the unbelievers; weep for those who differ in nowise from them, those who depart hence without the illumination, without the seal!  They indeed deserve our wailing, they deserve our groans; they are outside the Palace, with the culprits, with the condemned: for, ‘Verily I say unto you, Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.  (Homily III. On Phil. 1:1-20)

    He clearly teaches here that there's no entry into the Kingdom, the Palace, without the seal (Greek Patristic term for the character of Baptism), which he clearly ties to and equates with the "illumination".  Illumination is related to the Beatific Vision, which the Church has defined with the term "lumen gloriae" (light of glory).  St. John Chrysostom ties the Beatific Vision to the character of Baptism.

    Dogmatic Definition of the Council of Vienne:
    Quote
    To enable it to see God, the intellect of the blessed is supernaturally perfected by the light of glory (lumen gloriae).

    St. John ties this illumination of the intellect to the "seal" or character of Baptism.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #43 on: March 24, 2021, 02:32:46 PM »
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  • So, as a result, St. John Chrysostom rejects Baptism of Desire (in the sense of providing salvation or entry into the Kingdom):

    Quote
    For the Catechumen is a stranger to the Faithful… One has Christ for his King; the other sin and the devil; the food of one is Christ, of the other, that meat which decays and perishes… Since then we have nothing in common, in what, tell me, shall we hold communion?… Let us then give diligence that we may become citizens of the city above… for if it should come to pass (which God forbid!) that through the sudden arrival of death we depart hence uninitiated, though we have ten thousand virtues, our portion will be none other than hell, and the venomous worm, and fire unquenchable, and bonds indissoluble. (Hom. in Io. 25, 3)

    Several theologians later described the character of Baptism in the same way, as enabling "citizenship" in the Kingdom.  But perhaps God issues Green Cards to departed Catechumens?  Not so, according to St. John Chrysostom.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #44 on: March 24, 2021, 02:39:55 PM »
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  • from The Shepherd of Hermas ... early 2nd century Patristic source:

    Quote
    They were obliged,” he answered, “to ascend through water in order that they might be made alive; for, unless they laid aside the deadness of their life, they could not in any other way enter into the kingdom of God. … For,” he continued, “before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive. And to them, accordingly, was this seal preached, and they made use of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God.”

    Again, the "seal" (aka character) is required to "enter into the Kingdom of God".  That's another way the character is described, as essentially branding the likeness of the Son of God onto the soul "before a man bears the name of the Son of God".