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Author Topic: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology  (Read 6758 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2021, 10:01:40 PM »
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  • I have long proposed the notion that there's a theoretical possibility of a Limbo-like state for even adults even in the New Testament.
    .
    Sheesh, Ladislaus, just read a catechism book!


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #16 on: March 15, 2021, 10:03:00 PM »
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  • I'm going to have to ponder this thread some more, but the one thing that immediately comes to mind is that this argument contradicts all the "hurr durr dogmas don't have to be interpreted" pseudo-Protestants on here.  Because Florence pretty clearly talks about the *fires* of Hell for all non Catholics.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #17 on: March 15, 2021, 10:12:54 PM »
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  • Quote
    Because Florence pretty clearly talks about the *fires* of Hell for all non Catholics.

    But a justified, unbaptized person is not a non-catholic.  They desire to be catholic but God did not allow them to be baptized.  A catechumen is not a non-catholic.  They are a non-catholic by the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law recognizes their catholic desires.  They are an in-between, which is exactly what Limbo is.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #18 on: March 16, 2021, 06:09:14 AM »
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  • I'm going to have to ponder this thread some more, but the one thing that immєdιαtely comes to mind is that this argument contradicts all the "hurr durr dogmas don't have to be interpreted" pseudo-Protestants on here.  Because Florence pretty clearly talks about the *fires* of Hell for all non Catholics.

    Except we know that those in Limbo do not experience these fires.  Catechumens are in a different state altogether and are not in that list of "heretics, schismatics, and infidels" listed by Florence.  What to stop, say, an unbaptized martyr from having his sins washed and ending up in Limbo, having all personal/actual sin blotted out ... and joining those others in Limbo?  I would imagine that there are very few of these cases, but that's what would happen in theory.  As I mentioned before, both St. Cyprian and that 5th-century theological manual held that martyrs received the Sacrament ... because all the "sacred elements" were there.  But it appears that St. Ambrose disagrees, stating that thy are washed but not crowned.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #19 on: March 16, 2021, 06:10:38 AM »
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  • But a justified, unbaptized person is not a non-catholic.  They desire to be catholic but God did not allow them to be baptized.  A catechumen is not a non-catholic.  They are a non-catholic by the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law recognizes their catholic desires.  They are an in-between, which is exactly what Limbo is.

    Right, I responded the same way before I saw yours.  Catechumens were considered to be in an in-between state.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #20 on: March 16, 2021, 06:14:48 AM »
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  • So, for e.g. what precisely happened to the OT Just in limbo, so that they could go to Heaven? They clearly were already justified, and they were ultimately going to be saved. But did Our Lord Baptize them?

    I agree that Our Lord must have changed something about them. Some say that, while they earlier had only implicit faith in Him, He brought them to explicit faith, and thus they were enabled to enter Heaven.

    Yes, exactly.  That is what I have been saying for a long time.  When I posed this question years ago, LoT answered that Our Lord opened the "gates of heaven".  But apart from the concept that there are physical gates to heaven, what is the ontological explanation for why these OT just could not enter heaven?  They were lacking SOMEthing.

    Recall that curious episode where the Gospel speaks of how the dead were raised to life after the Resurrection?  Why?  Was it just to create a spectacle?  Some of the Church Fathers held that they were temporarily raised from the dead to be baptized.

    This also explains what Our Lord mean when saying that St. John the Baptist was the greatest person "born of woman" but lesser than the least in the Kingdom of God (those born again of water and the Holy Spirit).  We are talking about a division here between the natural (natural virtue, etc.) and the supernatural REbirth inito the Kingdom (the "crowning" of St. Ambrose).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #21 on: March 16, 2021, 06:23:38 AM »
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  • I agree with this, but I don't believe such persons would remain eternally and ultimately in limbo. I believe they will be ultimately saved, and if the Baptismal Character is necessary, God will confer that on them.

    God can do it through an Angel, He can do it by Himself, or by having some Saint do it. Nothing can constrain His Will to save His elect.

    Yes.  We read many stories from the Saints and other missionaries like Father DeSmet where people were raised back from the dead and restored to life in order to be baptized.

    There's no need to inflict this Pelagian view that people are saved by some natural virtue onto Catholic soteriology even with a concept of Baptism of Desire and Blood that produce a "washing" effect.

    But I posit hypothetically that if there WERE an martyr catechumen who died without the Sacrament, they would be washed of all personal sin but not crowned into the Kingdom as St. Ambrose appeared to believe.  I'll look at the St. Ambrose quote more closely, but he likens Valentinian to a martyr catechumen, who would be washed but not crowned.  But somehow Valentinian was different a little, which sounds as though he was either not a formal catechumen or was not considered martyred.  We know that Valentinian requested Baptism from St. Ambrose himself, and that's why he was murdered.  So it sounds like he would be considered a martyr?  Or did they have a very strict definition of martyrdom where the person had to deliberately hand himself over (profess Christianity) in order to be considered a martyr?

    So St. Ambrose speculates that, LIKE a martyred catechumen, his "piety and zeal" COULD perhaps also given him some measure of washing similar to that of a martyred catechumen.  It's hard to know what he was thinking.  To me it sounds as if Valentinian WOULD be a "martyred catechumen," but for some reason St. Ambrose didn't put him in that exact category ... either because he didn't think he was a martyr or he wasn't a formal catechumen.  I'm not sure whether it's known if Valentinian was in fact a formal Catechumen.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #22 on: March 16, 2021, 06:27:07 AM »
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  • Even the Catholic Encyclopedia states that BoD and BoB are called Baptism only by analogy with the Sacrament, in that it only provides the ONE effect of Baptism, washing of sins, BoB perfectly as if quasi ex opere operato, and BoD more ex opere operantis and proportionate to the person's degree of contrition, zeal, etc.  That is consistent with St. Ambrose saying that a martyred catechumen is washed but not crowned (into the Kingdom).  It's also consistent with St. Gregory nαzιanzen who distinguishes clearly between being "not punished" and receiving "glory".

    It all fits.

    And perhaps now we can reconcile the notion of a BoD/BoB with the requirement of Baptism to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  Father Feeney was right, and the notion of BoD/BoB can be salvaged ... when understood properly in these terms.

    Then we can go on to discuss whether BoD/BoB applies to anyone other than Catechumens.  I hold that there is absolutely no support for this anywhere in the Fathers or the Magisterium.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #23 on: March 16, 2021, 07:28:10 AM »
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  • And you'll never guess what else fits perfectly with this.

    St. Siricius

    St. Siricius stated that every single one of those who did not receive the Sacrament, although desiring it, would lose ... regnum et vitam, "the KINGDOM and life", life being a reference to the new supernatural life engendered at the rebirth by water and the Holy Spirit.  So he's saying that no one can have the KINGDOM (be crowned into the Kingdom) without having the Sacrament.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #24 on: March 16, 2021, 09:28:11 AM »
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  • So in this article from St. Benedict Center by Brian Kelly:

    he says this of St. Ambrose's oration on Valentinian:
    Quote
    “Grant, therefore, to Thy servant the gift of Thy grace which he never rejected, who on the day before his death refused to restore the privileges of the temples although he was pressed by those whom he could well have feared. A crowd of pagans was present, the Senate entreated, but he was not afraid to displease men so long as he pleased Thee alone in Christ. He who had Thy Spirit, how has he not received Thy grace? Or, if the fact disturbs you that the mysteries have not been solemnly celebrated, then you should realize that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated. But if they are washed in their own blood, his piety also and his desire have washed him.” (De Consolatione in obitu Valentiniani, 51-54 = PL 16, 1374-75. Translated by Roy J. Deferrari, Ph.D., in Funeral Orations by St. Gregory nαzιanzen and St. Ambrose, pp. 287-288)
    ...
    The translation is not the problem here. The last two sentences, which seem contradictory, are exactly accurate from the Latin of Migne’s Patrologia Latina. In the next to the last sentence Saint Ambrose says “that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated.” Does he mean that they are saved, but not crowned? Then, in the last sentence, he says that “if they [martyrs] are washed in their own blood, his piety also and his desire have washed him.” I cannot understand what the holy doctor is affirming or denying in these sentences. Perhaps something is missing from the original transcription itself.

    Ladislausian soteriology makes perfect sense of these last two sentences.

    St. Ambrose states that martyred catechumens are washed but not crowned.

    He's hoping that Valentinian can be washed (even if not crowned) by virtue of "his piety ... and his desire".

    For some reason St. Ambrose doesn't believe that Valentinian fits the bill to be a "martyred catechumen."  I'm not certain if this was because he didn't consider him a martyr (despite the circuмstances which appear to suggest that he was) or because he didn't consider him to be a catechumen (I'll try to research Valentinian's statement).

    So St. Ambrose is hoping that Valentinian's piety and zeal (I'll have to look up the Latin here soon) have washed him (brought remission of sin to some extent) in a manner similar to how martyred catechumens are washed.

    But NEITHER are crowned, as there is no crowning without the Sacrament of Baptism.

    And I have given the key to what is meaning by "crowning" ... which allows one to enter the Kingdom of God.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #25 on: March 16, 2021, 09:28:33 AM »
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    But apart from the concept that there are physical gates to heaven, what is the ontological explanation for why these OT just could not enter heaven?  They were lacking SOMEthing.
    I was always taught that there were 2 reasons why the OT just could not enter heaven.  The first reason is sound - the OT just had to wait in Limbo until Christ opened the gates of heaven on Ascension Thursday.  Christ, being the Redeemer and Reconciler of man with God, was the only one, and the first one, to re-enter heaven.  Christ was a new-Adam, who conquered Original Sin.
    .
    The second reason, which is speculative, is that the OT just had to be baptized.  Even St John the Baptist, who was part of the Old Law, said that Christ would Baptize with the Holy Ghost.  And another reason would be that Christ would provide them the Holy Eucharist, but this is also speculative.  Would God require all of the OT Just to enter the Church (the perfect, fulfilled Church of the New Law) before entering Heaven?  I don't see why not.  But I also can't say for sure.
    .

    Quote
    Recall that curious episode where the Gospel speaks of how the dead were raised to life after the Resurrection?  Why?  Was it just to create a spectacle?  Some of the Church Fathers held that they were temporarily raised from the dead to be baptized.

    This also explains what Our Lord mean when saying that St. John the Baptist was the greatest person "born of woman" but lesser than the least in the Kingdom of God (those born again of water and the Holy Spirit).  We are talking about a division here between the natural (natural virtue, etc.) and the supernatural REbirth inito the Kingdom (the "crowning" of St. Ambrose).

    Even Our Lady, who was full of grace, who never sinned, still needed a Redeemer.  She still called Our Lord Her Savior.  But if She was free from sin (the most justified person ever), why did She still need to be baptized?  Because She still did not have the baptismal character fully.  The Old Law was imperfect; it was a precursor; it was incomplete.  Christ completed the Old Law and the Holy Ghost started the Church on Pentacost.  Thus, it stands to reason, that to get into heaven under the New Law, you had to be baptized, receive the Eucharist, and become a perfect member of God's new kingdom.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #26 on: March 16, 2021, 09:59:20 AM »
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  • I was always taught that there were 2 reasons why the OT just could not enter heaven.  The first reason is sound - the OT just had to wait in Limbo until Christ opened the gates of heaven on Ascension Thursday.  Christ, being the Redeemer and Reconciler of man with God, was the only one, and the first one, to re-enter heaven.  Christ was a new-Adam, who conquered Original Sin.
    .
    The second reason, which is speculative, is that the OT just had to be baptized.  Even St John the Baptist, who was part of the Old Law, said that Christ would Baptize with the Holy Ghost.  And another reason would be that Christ would provide them the Holy Eucharist, but this is also speculative.  Would God require all of the OT Just to enter the Church (the perfect, fulfilled Church of the New Law) before entering Heaven?  I don't see why not.  But I also can't say for sure.
    .

    Even Our Lady, who was full of grace, who never sinned, still needed a Redeemer.  She still called Our Lord Her Savior.  But if She was free from sin (the most justified person ever), why did She still need to be baptized?  Because She still did not have the baptismal character fully.  The Old Law was imperfect; it was a precursor; it was incomplete.  Christ completed the Old Law and the Holy Ghost started the Church on Pentacost.  Thus, it stands to reason, that to get into heaven under the New Law, you had to be baptized, receive the Eucharist, and become a perfect member of God's new kingdom.

    I just feel that the expression regarding "opening the gates of Heaven" is metaphorical for making it possible for souls to enter Heaven.  So in a sense I believe that both of these reasons refer to the same phenomenon in different ways.

    It would be an interesting speculation to wonder if Our Lady had died before Our Lord's Resurrection, would she have gone to Heaven or waited in Limbo.  I'm guessing the latter.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #27 on: March 16, 2021, 10:45:33 AM »
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    I just feel that the expression regarding "opening the gates of Heaven" is metaphorical for making it possible for souls to enter Heaven.

    True.  However, and I don't know, could Original Sin be remitted under the Old Law?  Did circuмcision or any of the Jєωιѕн rites remit Original Sin?
    .
    Even if so, did the Old Law provide all the effects of Baptism?  I would guess no.
    .
    So, being that the whole purpose of Christ's birth/death was to conquer Original Sin, the OT Just could not enter heaven because (even being justified),
    .
    1) Christ had not yet reconciled humanity with God the Father fully.  The Ascension into heaven was the culmination of His purpose on earth.
    .
    2) If Original Sin still remained in the Old Testament just, they would need baptism to gain heaven.
    .
    3) If Original Sin was remitted in the Old Law, they still did not have the baptismal character.
    .
    4) The Church did not officially exist until Pentacost, so Christ had to baptize them in Limbo.  But heaven, I would argue, was still not open until Christ's Ascension.  I think this is more than a metaphor.  Adam closed heaven due to his sin; only Christ could re-open heaven.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #28 on: March 19, 2021, 01:00:59 PM »
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  • Gospel of St. Mark 16:16 (said by Our Lord):

    Quote
    And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature.  He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

    After the promulgation of the Gospel ...

    FAITH + BAPTISM = SALVATION

    NO FAITH = CONDEMNATION

    ergo, FAITH BUT NOT BAPTISM, neither Salvation nor Condemnation (the same in between state).

    Echoes St. Gregory nαzιanzen who distinguishes between glory (from Baptism) and lack of condemnation.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
    « Reply #29 on: March 19, 2021, 02:00:34 PM »
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  • In Mark 16:16, Our Lord says that those who believe AND are baptized will be saved, but that those who don't believe will be condemned.

    What about those who believe but are not baptized?

    He remains silent about them and does not reveal what happens to them.  But they are neither among the saved, nor among the condemned.