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Author Topic: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology  (Read 16304 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2021, 10:01:40 PM »
I have long proposed the notion that there's a theoretical possibility of a Limbo-like state for even adults even in the New Testament.
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Sheesh, Ladislaus, just read a catechism book!

Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2021, 10:03:00 PM »
I'm going to have to ponder this thread some more, but the one thing that immediately comes to mind is that this argument contradicts all the "hurr durr dogmas don't have to be interpreted" pseudo-Protestants on here.  Because Florence pretty clearly talks about the *fires* of Hell for all non Catholics.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2021, 10:12:54 PM »
Quote
Because Florence pretty clearly talks about the *fires* of Hell for all non Catholics.

But a justified, unbaptized person is not a non-catholic.  They desire to be catholic but God did not allow them to be baptized.  A catechumen is not a non-catholic.  They are a non-catholic by the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law recognizes their catholic desires.  They are an in-between, which is exactly what Limbo is.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2021, 06:09:14 AM »
I'm going to have to ponder this thread some more, but the one thing that immєdιαtely comes to mind is that this argument contradicts all the "hurr durr dogmas don't have to be interpreted" pseudo-Protestants on here.  Because Florence pretty clearly talks about the *fires* of Hell for all non Catholics.

Except we know that those in Limbo do not experience these fires.  Catechumens are in a different state altogether and are not in that list of "heretics, schismatics, and infidels" listed by Florence.  What to stop, say, an unbaptized martyr from having his sins washed and ending up in Limbo, having all personal/actual sin blotted out ... and joining those others in Limbo?  I would imagine that there are very few of these cases, but that's what would happen in theory.  As I mentioned before, both St. Cyprian and that 5th-century theological manual held that martyrs received the Sacrament ... because all the "sacred elements" were there.  But it appears that St. Ambrose disagrees, stating that thy are washed but not crowned.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Patristic Support for Ladilausian soteriology
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2021, 06:10:38 AM »
But a justified, unbaptized person is not a non-catholic.  They desire to be catholic but God did not allow them to be baptized.  A catechumen is not a non-catholic.  They are a non-catholic by the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law recognizes their catholic desires.  They are an in-between, which is exactly what Limbo is.

Right, I responded the same way before I saw yours.  Catechumens were considered to be in an in-between state.