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Author Topic: Orestes Brownson on theological questions  (Read 8347 times)

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Re: Orestes Brownson on theological questions
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2022, 11:01:11 AM »
No, this is either something birthed from the neo-Scholastic movement, or, perhaps we, Fr. Feeney and the Dimonds are wrong and those teaching the possibility are right.
To clarify, what I mean is not that they are right in holding BoD as de fide (the bigger issue today), it is not. But right in holding it as a valid theological opinion without being regarded as heretics.

Relevant to the topic, in the same article, even Brownson touches this issue:
Quote
It is of faith that no one can be saved out of the church, but it is not of faith that none are in the church who are not joined to her visible communion.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Orestes Brownson on theological questions
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2022, 11:30:01 AM »

Honestly, not that I've seen, no. Maybe an error will linger for a few decades or more before being specifically condemned by some Bishop. And that's after some wicked prelate begins disseminating it to undermine a dogma. But, in this case, it has been present for centuries alongside Catholic teaching with virtually no specific condemnation from the proper authority, namely, Rome. And it also doesn't seek to deny a dogma outright, as other heresies do, forcing an authoritative definition; but merely expounds upon one (baptism) under the realm of theological speculation. One cannot say Trent defined baptism for this purpose. As Trent was purely there as the official "reform" of the Church in answer to the Protestants.

Which is why I have to question whether it even is an error in its Thomistic/Alphonsian form. That's three doctors teaching the same thing over the course of 400 years? With no authoritative correction until some parish priest points it out in the 1940s-50s? Not even a murmur of other learned theologians on the matter from the 13th to 20th centuries? That's absolutely unheard of.

No, this is either something birthed from the neo-Scholastic movement, or, perhaps we, Fr. Feeney and the Dimonds are wrong and those teaching the possibility are right.



I commend you, DL, for the honesty and integrity of your thinking as exhibited here. The issue calls for it. 

Are you aware (anyone) of any theologians of any stature - well, I'm not aware of any theologians for that matter - holding that Trent didn't pronounce in Session VI, Chapter 4 that a desire for the sacrament can justify? Of course, many can be cited who did read Trent to say as much. 

Since this thread was prompted by the thought of Brownson, I'll again quote from his definitive (for me) comments on the necessity of the Church for salvation, and by necessary implication on the necessity of the sacrament of baptism, by which one enters the Church:



Quote
It is evident, both from Bellarmine and Billuart, that no one can be saved unless he belongs to the visible communion of the Church, either actually or virtually, and also that the salvation of catechumens can be asserted only because they do so belong; that is, because they are in the vestibule, for the purpose of entering, – have already entered in their will and proximate disposition. St. Thomas teaches with regard to these, in case they have faith working by love, that all they lack is the reception of the visible sacrament in re; but if they are prevented by death from receiving it in re before the Church is ready to administer it, that God supplies the defect, accepts the will for the deed, and reputes them to be baptized. If the defect is supplied, and God reputes them to be baptized, they are so in effect, have in effect received the visible sacrament, are truly members of the external communion of the Church, and therefore are saved in it, not out of it (Summa, 3, Q.68, a.2, corp. ad 2. Et ad 3.)… …Bellarmine, Billuart, Perrone, etc., in speaking of persons as belonging to the soul and not to the body, mean, it is evident, not persons who in no sense belong to the body, but simply those who, though they in effect belong to it, do not belong to it in the full and strict sense of the word, because they have not received the visible sacrament in re. All they teach is simply that persons may be saved who have not received the visible sacrament in re; but they by no means teach that persons can be saved without having received the visible sacrament at all. There is no difference between their view and ours, for we have never contended for anything more than this; only we think, that, in these times especially, when the tendency is to depreciate the external, it is more proper to speak of them simply as belonging to the soul, for the fact the most important to be insisted on is, not that it is impossible to be saved without receiving the visible sacrament in re, but that it is impossible to be saved without receiving the visible sacrament at least in voto et proxima dispositione.




Brownson, Orestes. “The Great Question.” Brownson’s Quarterly Review. Oct. 1847. Found in: Brownson, Henry F. The Works of Orestes A. Brownson: Collected and Arranged. Vol.V. (pp.562-563). Detroit: Thorndike Nourse, Publisher, 1884.

That right there is what I have described as the "core concept" of BOD: a recognition of the possibility of salvation by receipt of the sacrament "in voto et proxima dispositione." The Church has not elaborated on the how, and when, that possibility may become real, beyond saying it would if a catechumen was prevented from receiving the sacrament while having faith, repentance and preparing to receive it. 

The failure or lack of elaboration on the concept no more betrays the concept as false than a vast amount of mystery regarding the Trinity, for example, renders the truth of God being triune false. 

DR




Re: Orestes Brownson on theological questions
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2022, 11:58:49 AM »

Are you aware (anyone) of any theologians of any stature - well, I'm not aware of any theologians for that matter - holding that Trent didn't pronounce in Session VI, Chapter 4 that a desire for the sacrament can justify? Of course, many can be cited who did read Trent to say as much.
Outside of affirmations by popes and councils on what Trent taught. No. There isn't any theologian, or authority in the Church after Trent, that I am aware of, to specifically address this issue. Unlike literally all other heresies, this error has been virtually ignored for close to 700 years until Fr. Feeney drummed it up and the Dimonds carried the torch and modified it into their own position.

From the view of the Church for the past two centuries, ecuмenism and religious indifferentism were deemed far more dangerous to the Faith than saying that there's maybe a small chance for someone to be saved in voto by an extraordinary intervention of God.

Re: Orestes Brownson on theological questions
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2022, 03:00:03 AM »
The good thing is that Vatican I specifically condemned any such interpretations of definitions.
Quote
Sess. 3, ch. 4. 14. Hence, too,that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding.
I believe this is actually a great argument for Baptism of Desire. It does not say that a dogma must be understood as it was once declared. Perhaps that is also true, but that is not what it says.
It specifically says that the meaning/understanding (in other translations) which has once been declared by the church must be preserved.
That goes against the idea of laymen reading dogmatic definitions and assigning their own meaning to them.
Now, what is the church's understanding of the dogma in question? Surely the first place to go would be the Catechism of the Council of Trent, no? Or perhaps those approved church men who published commentaries on the Council in the centuries following it?
Most definitely the dogma's meaning which has once been declared by the church cannot first appear almost 500 years later by someone who was not tasked by the church with interpreting the council.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Orestes Brownson on theological questions
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2022, 05:42:31 AM »
I believe this is actually a great argument for Baptism of Desire. It does not say that a dogma must be understood as it was once declared. Perhaps that is also true, but that is not what it says.
It specifically says that the meaning/understanding (in other translations) which has once been declared by the church must be preserved.
That goes against the idea of laymen reading dogmatic definitions and assigning their own meaning to them.
Now, what is the church's understanding of the dogma in question? Surely the first place to go would be the Catechism of the Council of Trent, no? Or perhaps those approved church men who published commentaries on the Council in the centuries following it?
Most definitely the dogma's meaning which has once been declared by the church cannot first appear almost 500 years later by someone who was not tasked by the church with interpreting the council.
Here is demonstrated another aspect of what goes along with, or is combined within the multitude of other points that DL is probing into with this thread.