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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching  (Read 52014 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
« Reply #90 on: September 16, 2024, 06:52:10 PM »
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  • This idiotic and malevolent turd continues his tactic of never addressing each point as it's refuted but simply changing the subject and moving on to spam in the next collection of out-of-context and cherry-picked texts.

    Show some intellectual honesty and we might take you seriously.  Until then, his excrement should be ignored.

    Offline Romulus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #91 on: September 16, 2024, 08:53:51 PM »
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  • “Therefore just as we say that the holy paschal observance is in no way to be diminished, we also say that to infants who will not yet be able to speak on account of their age or to those who in any necessity will need the holy stream of baptism, we wish succor to be brought with all celerity, lest it should tend to the perdition of our souls if the saving font be denied to those desiring it and every single one of them exiting this world lose both the Kingdom and life.”

    Pope Saint Siricis decree to Himerius 385 AD


    I'm sticking to Pope Saint Siricis on this 😉 


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #92 on: September 17, 2024, 04:39:28 AM »
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  • Keep your restless Dimondide minds at ease. Unlike you, I don’t relay solely on one source. All I am trying to demonstrate here is how many hoops you have to jump through and how ridiculous your stance is while doing so.
    Your attempt at demonstrating fails miserable, you would know this if you addressed replies to your posts.

    But if I were you I would not depend on a BOD, I suggest that you get baptized by a priest in a church before you die.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #93 on: September 17, 2024, 05:13:33 AM »
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  • Pax,

    You deny Pope Pius IX Tuas Libenter (1863),DZ 1683.  Find one theologian of pre asteroid era that was not teaching this unanimously with others in the last century. Even Foul Mouther is aware of this, that’s why he is mentioning alleged consensus opinion of suffering infants.

    Pax, if “BOD is still in the 'theological opinion' tier” then the cult leaders would not ever go to denounce anyone under the sun as heretics left, right and centre. Unfortunately, self proclaimed theologians get their ammo right from upstate NY and do inconceivable damage in trad world.

    Foul Mouther,

    “theologians were unanimous regarding the Augustinian opinion that unbaptized infants suffered (albeit mildly) in Hell.” & “Which of these near-universal consensuses of theologians was infallible and irreformable”

    Another lie by you, Foul Mouther:

    “And so also in those who fail to receive the gift [of baptism]…perhaps on account of infancy, or some perfectly involuntary circuмstance through which they are prevented from receiving it, even if they wish…will be neither glorified nor punished by the righteous Judge, as unsealed [by baptism] and yet not wicked, but persons who have suffered rather than done wrong. For not every one who is not bad enough to be punished is good enough to be honored; just as not every one who is not good enough to be honored is bad enough to be punished.”
    -Saint Gregory nαzιanzus, Oration 40 on the Topic of Baptism, AD 329-390)

    not punished=no suffering

    Foul Mouther, would you care to give the list of these supposed 7 Fathers so I can destroy more of your lies?

    “Catholic theologians who were evidently a rule of faith just before Vatican II suddenly were no longer such a rule of faith when they all universally accepted V2 and the NOM as Catholic”

    Gee, Foul Mouther, let’s try this one shall we? Popes were the proximate rule of faith for 2 millennia and all of the sudden stopped being during Vatican II, so? Did something important maybe change?

    But not to scandalise your hardened Dimondide heart, explanation is very simple. Ratzinger, Rahner, Counger et al were brought in for their 5 minutes of glory to strike a deathblow to catholicism. Or shall we count them catholic theologians? But let’s count them as proper theologians for the sake of the argument for a moment.

    “With the advent of the Second Vatican Council in the 1960's, Guérard des Lauriers became concerned with the events taking place in the Church. In 1969, he co-authored the Ottaviani Intervention which was a critical study of the New Mass. In 1970, Pope Paul VI made public a docuмent demanding the resignation of certain conservative professors at the Pontifical Universities of Rome, among them Guérard des Lauriers.”

    Did Guérard des Lauriers flow with the current? Did he resist? So there is your unanimous consent out of the window.

    Guérard des Lauriers put more fight against it than your pope (Siri) that went with the revolution. Does Guérard des Lauriers count? 

    Stubborn, as I said hardly you will come across a person in your life that would be in this position, I am baptised.  

    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #94 on: September 17, 2024, 05:15:16 AM »
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  • Pax,

    You deny Pope Pius IX Tuas Libenter (1863),DZ 1683.  Find one theologian of pre asteroid era that was not teaching this unanimously with others in the last century. Even Foul Mouther is aware of this, that’s why he is mentioning alleged consensus opinion of suffering infants.

    Pax, if “BOD is still in the 'theological opinion' tier” then the cult leaders would not ever go to denounce anyone under the sun as heretics left, right and centre. Unfortunately, self proclaimed theologians get their ammo right from upstate NY and do inconceivable damage in trad world.

    Foul Mouther,

    “theologians were unanimous regarding the Augustinian opinion that unbaptized infants suffered (albeit mildly) in Hell.” & “Which of these near-universal consensuses of theologians was infallible and irreformable”

    Another lie by you, Foul Mouther:

    “And so also in those who fail to receive the gift [of baptism]…perhaps on account of infancy, or some perfectly involuntary circuмstance through which they are prevented from receiving it, even if they wish…will be neither glorified nor punished by the righteous Judge, as unsealed [by baptism] and yet not wicked, but persons who have suffered rather than done wrong. For not every one who is not bad enough to be punished is good enough to be honored; just as not every one who is not good enough to be honored is bad enough to be punished.”
    -Saint Gregory nαzιanzus, Oration 40 on the Topic of Baptism, AD 329-390)

    not punished=no suffering

    Foul Mouther, would you care to give the list of these supposed 7 Fathers so I can destroy more of your lies?

    “Catholic theologians who were evidently a rule of faith just before Vatican II suddenly were no longer such a rule of faith when they all universally accepted V2 and the NOM as Catholic”

    Gee, Foul Mouther, let’s try this one shall we? Popes were the proximate rule of faith for 2 millennia and all of the sudden stopped being during Vatican II, so? Did something important maybe change?

    But not to scandalise your hardened Dimondide heart, explanation is very simple. Ratzinger, Rahner, Counger et al were brought in for their 5 minutes of glory to strike a deathblow to catholicism. Or shall we count them catholic theologians? But let’s count them as proper theologians for the sake of the argument for a moment.

    “With the advent of the Second Vatican Council in the 1960's, Guérard des Lauriers became concerned with the events taking place in the Church. In 1969, he co-authored the Ottaviani Intervention which was a critical study of the New Mass. In 1970, Pope Paul VI made public a docuмent demanding the resignation of certain conservative professors at the Pontifical Universities of Rome, among them Guérard des Lauriers.”

    Did Guérard des Lauriers flow with the current? Did he resist? So there is your unanimous teaching of heresies out of the window.

    Guérard des Lauriers put more fight against it than your pope (Siri) that went with the revolution. Does Guérard des Lauriers count?

    Stubborn, as I said hardly you will come across a person in your life that would be in this position, I am baptised. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #95 on: September 17, 2024, 05:28:22 AM »
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  • Check the dates, moron.  I said from St. Augustine til about 1100 ... yet you paste something from St. Gregory nαzιanzen in the mid 300s ... ironic also because St. Gregory nαzιanzen explicitly rejects BoD.  This is explained in the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Limbo.  Look it up where it details how it was universally held until first challenged by Abelard.

    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #96 on: September 17, 2024, 06:01:15 AM »
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  • Check the dates, moron.  I said from St. Augustine til about 1100 ... yet you paste something from St. Gregory nαzιanzen in the mid 300s ... ironic also because St. Gregory nαzιanzen explicitly rejects BoD.  This is explained in the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Limbo.  Look it up where it details how it was universally held until first challenged by Abelard.

    This saint Gregory nαzιanzen?


    “…let us speak about the different kinds of Baptism, that we may come out thence purified. Moses baptized Leviticus xi but it was in water, and before that in the cloud and in the sea. I Corinthians 10:2 This was typical as Paul says; the Sea of the water, and the Cloud of the Spirit; the Manna, of the Bread of Life; the Drink, of the Divine Drink. John also baptized; but this was not like the baptism of the Jews, for it was not only in water, but also unto repentance. Still it was not wholly spiritual, for he does not add And in the Spirit. Jesus also baptized, but in the Spirit. This is the perfect Baptism. And how is He not God, if I may digress a little, by whom you too are made God? I know also a Fourth Baptism— that by Martyrdom and blood, which also Christ himself underwent:— and this one is far more august than all the others, inasmuch as it cannot be defiled by after-stains. Yes, and I know of a Fifth also, which is that of tears, and is much more laborious, received by him who washes his bed every night and his couch with tears; whose bruises stink through his wickedness; and who goes mourning and of a sad countenance; who imitates the repentance of Manasseh Ninevites Jonah 3:7-10 upon which God had mercy; who utters the words of the Publican in the Temple, and is justified rather than the stiff-necked Pharisee; Luke 18:13 who like the Canaanite woman bends down and asks for mercy and crumbs, the food of a dog that is very hungry. Matthew 15:27”

    C'mon Foul Mouther, what are the other Fathers you have there that "explicitly" deny BOD or BOB. Let's see the list that NY bros hand out. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #97 on: September 17, 2024, 07:28:11 AM »
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  • This saint Gregory nαzιanzen?

    Wrong again, but then you continue to lie and distort.  He's not referring to anything that can supply for Baptism in terms of permitting/enabling entry into the Kingdom.  Many Fathers referred to various "Baptisms" in an analogous sense.  He explicitly rejected that the desire/intention could lead to "glory" in the Kingdom, as do nearly all the Church Fathers (except for the retracted youthful speculation of St. Augustine).  But keep lying, scuмbag.

    Fathers who reject BoD (including St. Gregory nαzιanzen, despite your lies) have been listed myriad times here on this forum.  In fact, even Rahner (who promoted "Anonymous Christian" theory and disagreed with the Fathers) had the intellectual honesty that you lack, and admitted that there was no Patristic support for BoD, listing a number of the Fathers who rejected it.  I can find those quotes for others, or a link to them ... but not for your sake, since you're a bad-willed dirtbag.

    And, of course, yet another subject change ... since I was referring to St. Gregory as coming before St. Augustine and therefore having nothing to do with my earlier statement (backed by Catholic Encyclopedia) that St. Augustine's opinion regarding unbaptized children was held universally for about 700 years after him.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #98 on: September 17, 2024, 07:36:20 AM »
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  • Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #99 on: September 17, 2024, 08:30:07 AM »
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  • Wrong again, but then you continue to lie and distort.  He's not referring to anything that can supply for Baptism in terms of permitting/enabling entry into the Kingdom.  Many Fathers referred to various "Baptisms" in an analogous sense.  He explicitly rejected that the desire/intention could lead to "glory" in the Kingdom, as do nearly all the Church Fathers (except for the retracted youthful speculation of St. Augustine).  But keep lying, scuмbag.

    Fathers who reject BoD (including St. Gregory nαzιanzen, despite your lies) have been listed myriad times here on this forum.  In fact, even Rahner (who promoted "Anonymous Christian" theory and disagreed with the Fathers) had the intellectual honesty that you lack, and admitted that there was no Patristic support for BoD, listing a number of the Fathers who rejected it.  I can find those quotes for others, or a link to them ... but not for your sake, since you're a bad-willed dirtbag.

    And, of course, yet another subject change ... since I was referring to St. Gregory as coming before St. Augustine and therefore having nothing to do with my earlier statement (backed by Catholic Encyclopedia) that St. Augustine's opinion regarding unbaptized children was held universally for about 700 years after him.

    Lol, of course I'm wrong. It only matters what Dimonds allow you to think. So cath encyclopedia is a valid source of info when you quote it, but when I quote that common opinion historically is that there is bob/bod, burn it. That's the consistency I'm talking about. 

    Early Fathers had split opinion (so no consensus). If you have these Fathers that have written on the topic after Augustine and Before Thomas Aquinas, quote them and I will look into. Who are they? Where is 700 years of writing about the topic? 

    St. Thomas Aquinas said children depravation of God involves no pain, and is such that the babies do not even know what they have missed (St. Thomas, De Malo q. 5, a. 3 ad 4).  

    You remind me of Luther with that snake's tongue, Mr Tourette. You just keep spitting poison every time you speak. 

    Now show us your famous anti-bod Fathers list... Who are those 8 Church Fathers you are talking about? 

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #100 on: September 17, 2024, 08:33:38 AM »
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  • Check the dates, moron.
    But keep lying, scuмbag.

     since you're a bad-willed dirtbag.
    This idiotic and malevolent turd
    Why do you call our Lord names? Remember what we do to the least of brethren we do to Christ. That should cause us fear and trembling around others at the thought of offending our future judge. If anything, we should each call ourselves such names for our own foolishness, me included.

    I don't know who started it, but now at least 2 are spewing hate (at least in word if not intent). "Good, good, let the hate flow through you" the devil is saying.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"


    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #101 on: September 17, 2024, 08:45:36 AM »
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  • I don't know who started it, but now at least 2 are spewing hate (at least in word if not intent). "Good, good, let the hate flow through you" the devil is saying.
    St Giles, please quote where I was spewing any hate (as you say at least 2 are spewing hate). 

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #102 on: September 17, 2024, 09:15:08 AM »
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  • You remind me of Luther with that snake's tongue, Mr Tourette. You just keep spitting poison every time you speak.
    I was thinking as I was posting that hate is too strong of a word, but it starts small. I said hate at least in word if not intention, because I knew you at least, probably Lad as well for the most part, had no real hate for the other. Just don't stoop to his level. Name calling can be contagious, which leads to I'll will, ect.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #103 on: September 17, 2024, 09:38:39 AM »
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  • I was thinking as I was posting that hate is too strong of a word, but it starts small. I said hate at least in word if not intention, because I knew you at least, probably Lad as well for the most part, had no real hate for the other. Just don't stoop to his level. Name calling can be contagious, which leads to I'll will, ect.
    Well, thank you for the fraternal correction if you think I overstepped. I will duly note it. That's how I genuinely feel. You are correct as well that I should not engage at his level. My reaction is strictly from the angle I see in his words as he cannot make one post without being vulgar.