Author Topic: ordinary vs extraordinary means of salvation (Read 28558 times)

Deliveringit1 · « **on:** December 27, 2010, 04:15:57 PM »

I'm wondering about this. I hear some Catholics claim that God is not bound to ordinary means of salvation(meaning through the Sacraments and the Church which he established), but that God may be able to save souls through extraordinary means(such as to intercede immedietaly at the point of that person's death).

What are your thoughts on this? :confused1:

Telesphorus · « **Reply #1 on:** December 27, 2010, 04:18:00 PM »

Quote from: Deliveringit1

I'm wondering about this. I hear some Catholics claim that God is not bound to ordinary means of salvation(meaning through the Sacraments and the Church which he established), but that God may be able to save souls through extraordinary means of salvation(such as to intecede immedietaly at the point of that person's death).

What are your thoughts on this? :confused1:

Do you really believe that God condemned all souls to hell who were unable to hear the Gospel from members (excepting those in heaven) of the Church?

Are Catholics bound to believe that?

I don't.

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #2 on:** December 27, 2010, 04:23:44 PM »

Telesphorus, so you believe there is "salvation outside of the Church" ?

Bazz · « **Reply #3 on:** December 27, 2010, 04:29:56 PM »

I won't attempt to "re-invent the wheel", so here goes:

St. Augustine, "Treatise on Baptism"
"When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body."

St. Bernard, "De Baptismo"
"What is clearer than that the will is taken for the act, when the act is excluded by necessity?"

St. Thomas Aquinas "Summa Theologica"
"...a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance."

St. Thomas Aquinas "Summa Theologica"
"So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit"

St. Thomas Aquinas "Summa Theologica"
"man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly"

"Catechism of the Council of Trent":
"....should any unforeseen accident deprive adults of baptism, their intention of receiving it, and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness." [section on baptism]

"...such is the efficacy of true contrition...that through it we obtain from God the immediate pardon of our sins." [section on penance]

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 27, 2010, 04:40:17 PM »

Bazz, those statements which you have posted from several Saints and from the catechism are not infallible statements. Plus there are numerous Saints who claimed that water baptism and the Church were the only means of salvation.

Are there any infallible statements from the Church that address this issue?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #5 on:** December 27, 2010, 04:49:06 PM »

Quote from: Deliveringit1

Telesphorus, so you believe there is "salvation outside of the Church" ?

No, I don't. I don't define Church membership as belonging only to those who have been baptized with water.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #6 on:** December 27, 2010, 05:08:30 PM »

God created the ordinary motions of nature, etc., too...yet we see Him suspend/set aside those laws from time to time, for His own good reasons (which reasons usually involve the good of His creatures).

So long as something is, in fact, possible, He can do it -- this only excludes things like making a square 'circle', etc. Whether or not He chooses to do this or that is, of course, up to Him.

trad123 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 27, 2010, 05:16:35 PM »

Articles of Interest:

Baptism of Desire and of Blood
MATER DEI SEMINARY newsletter "Adsum" (January, 2004)

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/Baptism_of_Desire.html

Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles

http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/BaptDes-Proofed.pdf

Baptism of Desire: An Exchange

http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=28&catname=2

Quote from: Telesphorus

I don't define Church membership as belonging only to those who have been baptized with water.

This contradicts Pope Pius' teaching in Mystici Corporis Christi:

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MYSTI.HTM

Quote

22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.

What the deal is, is that it is not absolutely necessary to be a member of the Church to belong to the Church.

Two more links of interest:

Membership in the Church, Mons. Fenton Articles

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Membership-in-the-Church-2

Letter of the Holy Office

http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdffeeny.htm

It's necessary for salvation for a person to belong to the soul of the Church in actuality, and the body of the Church at least in desire, and this desire can be implicit.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #8 on:** December 27, 2010, 05:31:16 PM »

well, not formal members, but members of the Body of Christ, when they die.

GregorianChat · « **Reply #9 on:** December 27, 2010, 05:54:03 PM »

Are there extraordinary means outside the sacraments? Of course there are.
Even though the Council of Trent session 14 canon 6 anathematizes any one who denies sacramental confession is “necessary to salvation” and also canon 7 that the sacrament of Penance is necessary “for the remission of sins”. Someone in mortal sin can still be saved by “perfect contrition” or by shedding their blood in martyrdom. These two are not sacramental confession but they have the effect of the sacrament.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #10 on:** December 27, 2010, 06:05:54 PM »

All those who die in Sanctifying grace are within the Church, extraordinary means of salvation does not mean you are saved outside the Church.

It just means God can give His mercy and grsce to whoever He wills and either restore them to Sanctifying grace or instill them with His grace in an extradinary way, which is why we are taught not to judge the soul of anyone. We can always have hope to see our loved ones again someday, especially if we have prayed for them in their lifetime.

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 27, 2010, 06:52:05 PM »

So far none of you have produced any dogmatic Church teachings which claims a soul can be saved by some "extraordinary means" outside of the Church and its sacraments.

However, I have seen apparent dogmatic pronouncements which claim there is no salvation outside the Church and outside of its sacraments.

So can anyone in this Forum show any established Church Dogma from Church Councils and Infallible statements from a Pope which makes "extraordinary means of salvation" a truth?

GregorianChat · « **Reply #12 on:** December 27, 2010, 07:01:29 PM »

Quote from: Deliveringit1

So far none of you have produced any dogmatic Church teachings which claims a soul can be saved by some "extraordinary means" outside of the Church and its sacraments.

However, I have seen apparent dogmatic pronouncements which claim there is no salvation outside the Church and outside of its sacraments.

So can anyone in this Forum show any established Church Dogma from Church Councils and Infallible statements from a Pope which makes "extraordinary means of salvation" a truth?

No one ever claimed that there is salvation outside the Church. Where are you getting this???

I gave you two examples of extraordinary means that have the effect of sacramental confession.

Do you deny "perfect contrition"?

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 27, 2010, 11:19:37 PM »

Quote from: GregorianChat

Someone in mortal sin can still be saved by “perfect contrition” or by shedding their blood in martyrdom.

I know that a water baptized Catholic can receive remission of sins through an act of "perfect contrition" or by martyrdom, but can you show me the infallible dogmatic statements from the Church which says this also applies to non-catholic heretics who are outside the Church?
The reason I ask is because I remember seeing an infallible statement from a Pope which said nobody outside the Church can be saved by the shedding of their own blood in the name of Christ. Plus I also remember seeing another infallible statement which said there is no remission for sins whatsoever for anyone outside the Church

Bazz · « **Reply #14 on:** December 28, 2010, 12:03:51 AM »

Ordinary versus extraordinary?

Think about how the ordinary minister of baptism is a priest. They say the extraordinary minister is a deacon, or in emergencies - a layman. The point being that ordinary is the common, usual way.

This is where you go totally wrong in the first place Deliveringit1 (DI), concerning infallibility. The ordinary and infallible way the Church teaches is NOT by the extraordinary method of papal definitions and Councils. See what the Vatican Council of 1870 taught about this:

"...all those things are to be believed with divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgment or by her ordinary and universal magisterium, proposes for belief as having been divinely revealed."

So, what do you, DI, believe with divine and Catholics faith that has only been taught in the common, usual way and NOT by the extraordinary magisterium?

The quotes I gave were the common teaching believed by all, throughout the centuries, and without controversy. Had they been against solemn teaching, the Church would not have failed to mention they were heresy.

Your whole concept of infallibility, DI, is mistaken. This is a root problem with those infected by Feeneyism.