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Author Topic: ordinary vs extraordinary means of salvation  (Read 28564 times)

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Offline trad123

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ordinary vs extraordinary means of salvation
« Reply #390 on: January 24, 2011, 09:00:35 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    I guess that I do not understand why do you need a theologian to tell you what you are reading.


    http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=28&catname=2

    Quote
    In practice, your criteria (and those of the typical Feeney adherent) appear to be these:

    1. No anathema, no belief. A Catholic’s obligation to adhere to Church teaching is restricted to only those matters that the infallible judgment of the Church has solemnly proposed for belief as dogmas of the faith.

    2. Free interpretation of magisterial texts. The individual lay Catholic is free to determine for himself the “literal meaning” of these (few) solemn infallible pronouncements, and contradict what popes, bishops, and approved theological manuals have taught about them for centuries.

    The first principle was condemned by Pius IX in the Syllabus of Errors (Dz 1722).

    The second is the Protestant principle of unmediated free interpretation — but instead of a Bible, each lay believer examines a vernacular Denzinger.

    So, when you ask me, “If one accepts these canons [on baptism] as they are written… does one, in any way, fall into error?” my response is: If someone accepts them as you think they were written, he falls in every way into error.

    For you approach these canons, and indeed all pronouncements of the magisterium, without having first submitted to all the obligations for belief or adherence that Vatican I and Pius IX imposed.

    This refusal of submission — and not the particular issue of extra Ecclesiam — is the fundamental error from which all the other errors of Feeneyism flow.

    The Church’s requirements are a package. You accept and submit to them all, or you can’t honestly call yourself a Catholic.

    And no matter what category theologians may attach to baptism of desire or baptism of blood — de fide, Catholic doctrine, or just “theologically certain” — to refuse adherence to a teaching in any of these categories is still a mortal sin against the faith.


    http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdffeeny.htm

    Quote
    We are bound by divine and Catholic faith to believe all those things which are contained in the word of God, whether it be Scripture or Tradition, and are proposed by the Church to be believed as divinely revealed, not only through solemn judgment but also through the ordinary and universal teaching office (<Denzinger>, n. 1792).

    Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.

    However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.


    (. . .)

    Quote
    Hence, one cannot understand how the St. Benedict Center can consistently claim to be a Catholic school and wish to be accounted such, and yet not conform to the prescriptions of canons 1381 and 1382 of the Code of Canon Law, and continue to exist as a source of discord and rebellion against ecclesiastical authority and as a source of the disturbance of many consciences.

    Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious Institute, namely Father Feeney, presents himself as a "Defender of the Faith," and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities, and has not even feared to incur grave sanctions threatened by the sacred canons because of his serious violations of his duties as a religious, a priest, and an ordinary member of the Church.

    Finally, it is in no wise to be tolerated that certain Catholics shall claim for themselves the right to publish a periodical, for the purpose of spreading theological doctrines, without the permission of competent Church authority, called the "<imprimatur,>" which is prescribed by the sacred canons.

    Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged against the Church seriously bear in mind that after "Rome has spoken" they cannot be excused even by reasons of good faith. Certainly, their bond and duty of obedience toward the Church is much graver than that of those who as yet are related to the Church "only by an unconscious desire." Let them realize that they are children of the Church, lovingly nourished by her with the milk of doctrine and the sacraments, and hence, having heard the clear voice of their Mother, they cannot be excused from culpable ignorance, and therefore to them apply without any restriction that principle: submission to the Catholic Church and to the Sovereign Pontiff is required as necessary for salvation.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Stubborn

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    ordinary vs extraordinary means of salvation
    « Reply #391 on: January 24, 2011, 09:04:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: trad123
    Quote from: Stubborn
    St. Augustine, in his book Retractationes (Retractions) said:

    Nor let us wonder that we cannot trace His unsearchable ways. For, to say nothing of innumerable other things which are given by the Lord God to some men, and to others are not given, since with Him is no respect of persons; such things as are not conferred on the merits of will, as bodily swiftness, strength, good health, and beauty of body, marvellous intellects and mental natures capable of many arts, or such as fall to man's lot from without, such as are wealth, nobility, honours, and other things of this kind, which it is in the power of God alone that a man should have; not to dwell even on the baptism of infants (which none of those objectors can say does not pertain, as might be said of those other matters, to the kingdom of God), why it is given to this infant and not given to that, since both of them are equally in God's power, and without that sacrament none can enter into the kingdom of God—to be silent, then, on these matters, or to leave them on one side, let men consider those very special cases of which we are treating. For we are discoursing of such as have not perseverance in goodness, but die in the decline of their good will from good to evil.


    What are you doing? Not even reading the passage, just copying from the Dimond brothers?

    Read the part before you bolded:

    Quote
    not to dwell even on the baptism of infants (which none of those objectors can say does not pertain, as might be said of those other matters, to the kingdom of God), why it is given to this infant and not given to that, since both of them are equally in God's power, and without that sacrament none can enter into the kingdom of God


    He's speaking of infants.


    Not so - it is written directly from the book. Feel free to get your own copy.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline trad123

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    ordinary vs extraordinary means of salvation
    « Reply #392 on: January 24, 2011, 09:04:27 AM »
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  • It's useless to attempt to show St. Augustine did not teach BOD when St. Thomas quotes him in his Summa Theologica in support of this very doctrine, multiple times.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Stubborn

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    ordinary vs extraordinary means of salvation
    « Reply #393 on: January 24, 2011, 09:05:51 AM »
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  • I see you have avoided answering my question to you - so I will try again..........................................

    If Trent did not infallibly teach the absolute necessity of water baptism for sanctification, what did they infallibly teach?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    ordinary vs extraordinary means of salvation
    « Reply #394 on: January 24, 2011, 09:08:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: trad123
    It's useless to attempt to show St. Augustine did not teach BOD when St. Thomas quotes him in his Summa Theologica in support of this very doctrine, multiple times.


    The point is that the OM was not unanimous. AND I can post St. Thomas saying that water was an absolute necessity.

    Either way - please, feel free to post what the H you are defending - - - - -PLEASE QUOTE THE CHURCH'S DOCTRINE OF BOD.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline trad123

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    ordinary vs extraordinary means of salvation
    « Reply #395 on: January 24, 2011, 09:08:12 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    I see you have avoided answering my question to you - so I will try again..........................................

    If Trent did not infallibly teach the absolute necessity of water baptism for sanctification, what did they infallibly teach?


    It teaches that the necessity of baptism is in actuality or desire, just the same as St. Thomas:

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article2

    Quote
    Objection 3. Further, as stated above (1; 65, 4), the sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation. Now that is necessary "without which something cannot be" (Metaph. v). Therefore it seems that none can obtain salvation without Baptism.

    Reply to Objection 3. The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least, Baptism of desire; "which, with God, counts for the deed" (Augustine, Enarr. in Ps. 57).
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    ordinary vs extraordinary means of salvation
    « Reply #396 on: January 24, 2011, 09:11:54 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: trad123
    It's useless to attempt to show St. Augustine did not teach BOD when St. Thomas quotes him in his Summa Theologica in support of this very doctrine, multiple times.


    The point is that the OM was not unanimous. AND I can post St. Thomas saying that water was an absolute necessity.

    Either way - please, feel free to post what the H you are defending - - - - -PLEASE QUOTE THE CHURCH'S DOCTRINE OF BOD.


    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4066.htm#article4

    There's the article you think where he contradicts himself.

    Here's the Catechism of the Council of Trent, McHugh/Callan, p. 179:

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    Should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    ordinary vs extraordinary means of salvation
    « Reply #397 on: January 24, 2011, 09:13:30 AM »
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  • I'm leaving for class, I'll continue this discussion later.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.