Author Topic: ordinary vs extraordinary means of salvation (Read 28598 times)

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #15 on:** December 28, 2010, 12:37:02 AM »

Quote from: Deliveringit1

...

a water baptized Catholic

A novel Feeneyite distinction.

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 28, 2010, 08:52:09 AM »

Quote from: Bazz

Your whole concept of infallibility, DI, is mistaken. This is a root problem with those infected by Feeneyism.

Bazz, so you hold fallible teachings,(much of which comes from theologians), as being more authoritative than infallible teachings(which comes from past Popes and past Church Councils).

Isn't a Catholic suppose to recognize infallible dogmatic teachings of the Church as something that one must accept and believe in? Therefore if any fallible teaching is put forth at some later date, then a Catholic can know that it is to be rejected.

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 28, 2010, 09:03:45 AM »

Quote from: Roman Catholic

Quote from: Deliveringit1
...

a water baptized Catholic

A novel Feeneyite distinction.

Roman Catholic, you say its a novel Feeneyite distinction, but isn't Water Baptism an already established Dogmatic infallible teaching of the Church? Doesn't the Church already infallibly and dogmatically declare that Water Baptism is the only way by which a person can be brought into the Church? And doesn't the Church go on to infallibly and dogmatically declare that THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH ???

Cristian · « **Reply #18 on:** December 28, 2010, 09:07:59 AM »

Quote from: Deliveringit1

Quote from: Roman Catholic
Quote from: Deliveringit1
...

a water baptized Catholic

A novel Feeneyite distinction.

Roman Catholic, you say its a novel Feeneyite distinction, but isn't Water Baptism an already established Dogmatic infallible teaching of the Church? Doesn't the Church already infallibly and dogmatically declare that Water Baptism is the only way by which a person can be brought into the Church? And doesn't the Church go on to infallibly and dogmatically declare that THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH ???

First of all you have to prove sir that the terms "inside the Church" (outside ths Church) and "member of the Church" (non-member of the Church) mean the same thing...

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #19 on:** December 28, 2010, 09:23:51 AM »

Quote from: Deliveringit1

Quote from: Roman Catholic
Quote from: Deliveringit1
...

a water baptized Catholic

A novel Feeneyite distinction.

Roman Catholic, you say its a novel Feeneyite distinction, but isn't Water Baptism an already established Dogmatic infallible teaching of the Church? Doesn't the Church already infallibly and dogmatically declare that Water Baptism is the only way by which a person can be brought into the Church? And doesn't the Church go on to infallibly and dogmatically declare that THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH ???

You said a "water baptized Catholic" --- but the Church has never spoken in those terms. The Church has never made a distinction calling some people "water baptized Catholics" and calling other people who become Catholics through baptism of blood, "blood Catholics". Catholics are Catholics.

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 28, 2010, 09:34:21 AM »

Quote from: Cristian

Quote from: Deliveringit1
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Quote from: Deliveringit1
...

a water baptized Catholic

A novel Feeneyite distinction.

Roman Catholic, you say its a novel Feeneyite distinction, but isn't Water Baptism an already established Dogmatic infallible teaching of the Church? Doesn't the Church already infallibly and dogmatically declare that Water Baptism is the only way by which a person can be brought into the Church? And doesn't the Church go on to infallibly and dogmatically declare that THERE IS NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH ???

First of all you have to prove sir that the terms "inside the Church" (outside ths Church) and "member of the Church" (non-member of the Church) mean the same thing...

the Church has dogmatically taught,
Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:* “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.* And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. *The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.” DZ 696

I have provided you just one infallible statement that Water Baptism is needed to become a member of the Catholic Church and that one must be a member of the Catholic Church to enter Heaven. There are many more infallible statements from past Popes and Councils that I can provide for you which makes the same case.

Cristian, now can any of you in this "TRADITIONAL" Catholic Forum provide any infallible dogmatic teachings from any past Popes and Councils which make the claim that Water Baptism is NOT necessary to become a member of the Church and that being a formal member of the Church is also NOT needed ???

SJB · « **Reply #21 on:** December 28, 2010, 09:36:07 AM »

Deliver it somewhere else.

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 28, 2010, 09:39:58 AM »

Quote from: Roman Catholic

You said a "water baptized Catholic" --- but the Church has never spoken in those terms. The Church has never made a distinction calling some people "water baptized Catholics" and calling other people who become Catholics through baptism of blood, "blood Catholics". Catholics are Catholics.

Roman Catholic, I have already posted the infallible teaching that only "WATER baptism" enables a person to become a member of the Catholic Church.

Now can you provide any infallible statements from any past Popes and/or Church Councils which make the case for an individual becoming a member through "Baptism of Blood"?

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #23 on:** December 28, 2010, 09:41:55 AM »

The Roman Martyrology

And yes, deliver it somewhere else. Or put differently: from deliveringit, deliver us O Lord.

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 28, 2010, 09:43:51 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Deliver it somewhere else.

SJB, so you don't want me to post "Traditional dogmatic infallible Church statements" in this "Traditional" catholic Forum?

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #25 on:** December 28, 2010, 09:46:41 AM »

Quote from: Roman Catholic

The Roman Martyrology

And yes, deliver it somewhere else.

Or put differently: from deliveringit, deliver us O Lord.

Roman Catholic, so you also don't want me to post "Traditional dogmatic infallible Church statements" in this "Traditional" catholic Forum?

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #26 on:** December 28, 2010, 09:47:41 AM »

Quote from: Deliveringit1

Quote from: Roman Catholic
The Roman Martyrology

And yes, deliver it somewhere else.

Or put differently: from deliveringit, deliver us O Lord.

Roman Catholic, so you also don't want me to post "Traditional dogmatic infallible Church statements" in this "Traditional" catholic Forum?

The Roman Martyrology

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #27 on:** December 28, 2010, 09:55:30 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

All those who die in Sanctifying grace are within the Church, extraordinary means of salvation does not mean you are saved outside the Church.

Exactly.

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #28 on:** December 28, 2010, 09:57:00 AM »

Quote from: Roman Catholic

Quote from: Deliveringit1
Quote from: Roman Catholic
The Roman Martyrology

And yes, deliver it somewhere else.

Or put differently: from deliveringit, deliver us O Lord.

Roman Catholic, so you also don't want me to post "Traditional dogmatic infallible Church statements" in this "Traditional" catholic Forum?

The Roman Martyrology

Roman Catholic, I guess you think you have just provided me with infallible and conclusive evidence of Church teachings for "baptism of blood", but apparently you do not know the difference between fallible and infallible.

I'll ask again,...can you provide any "INFALLIBLE DOGMATIC" teachings of the Holy Catholic Church which makes the case for "baptism of blood"

Cristian · « **Reply #29 on:** December 28, 2010, 09:58:24 AM »

Quote from: Deliveringit1

the Church has dogmatically taught,
Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:* “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church.* And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. *The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.” DZ 696

I have provided you just one infallible statement that Water Baptism is needed to become a member of the Catholic Church and that one must be a member of the Catholic Church to enter Heaven. There are many more infallible statements from past Popes and Councils that I can provide for you which makes the same case.

Cristian, now can any of you in this "TRADITIONAL" Catholic Forum provide any infallible dogmatic teachings from any past Popes and Councils which make the claim that Water Baptism is NOT necessary to become a member of the Church and that being a formal member of the Church is also NOT needed ???

Well that the sacrament of Baptism is necessary to be members of the Church was already defined by the Church I don`t think we need to discus it any longer. Besides we both agree.

Regarding the posibility of salvation for those who are not members of the Church I give you 3 reasons:

1) Pius XII M. Corporis

103. As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly. Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the "great and glorious Body of Christ" and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be secure of their salvation. For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love. Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger's house, but to their own, their father's home

2) The common teaching of all theologians and canonists (even canon law itself) affirming you can have the effects of the sacrament of baptism through baptism of blood and of desire. This is Universal and Ordinary Magisterium.

3) How do you interpret the words of Our Lord "Then Jesus said to them: "Amen, amen, I say unto you: unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will raise him up in the last day." (Jn VI, 53-54).

Should we conclude from this that any baptized infant will go to hell because he didn`t receive holy communion? What about those Catholics who die having use of reason and before doing his first communion? Same conclusion...?

Cristian