Author Topic: ordinary vs extraordinary means of salvation (Read 57305 times)

MyrnaM · « **Reply #10 on:** December 27, 2010, 06:05:54 PM »

All those who die in Sanctifying grace are within the Church, extraordinary means of salvation does not mean you are saved outside the Church.

It just means God can give His mercy and grsce to whoever He wills and either restore them to Sanctifying grace or instill them with His grace in an extradinary way, which is why we are taught not to judge the soul of anyone. We can always have hope to see our loved ones again someday, especially if we have prayed for them in their lifetime.

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 27, 2010, 06:52:05 PM »

So far none of you have produced any dogmatic Church teachings which claims a soul can be saved by some "extraordinary means" outside of the Church and its sacraments.

However, I have seen apparent dogmatic pronouncements which claim there is no salvation outside the Church and outside of its sacraments.

So can anyone in this Forum show any established Church Dogma from Church Councils and Infallible statements from a Pope which makes "extraordinary means of salvation" a truth?

GregorianChat · « **Reply #12 on:** December 27, 2010, 07:01:29 PM »

Quote from: Deliveringit1

So far none of you have produced any dogmatic Church teachings which claims a soul can be saved by some "extraordinary means" outside of the Church and its sacraments.

However, I have seen apparent dogmatic pronouncements which claim there is no salvation outside the Church and outside of its sacraments.

So can anyone in this Forum show any established Church Dogma from Church Councils and Infallible statements from a Pope which makes "extraordinary means of salvation" a truth?

No one ever claimed that there is salvation outside the Church. Where are you getting this???

I gave you two examples of extraordinary means that have the effect of sacramental confession.

Do you deny "perfect contrition"?

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 27, 2010, 11:19:37 PM »

Quote from: GregorianChat

Someone in mortal sin can still be saved by “perfect contrition” or by shedding their blood in martyrdom.

I know that a water baptized Catholic can receive remission of sins through an act of "perfect contrition" or by martyrdom, but can you show me the infallible dogmatic statements from the Church which says this also applies to non-catholic heretics who are outside the Church?
The reason I ask is because I remember seeing an infallible statement from a Pope which said nobody outside the Church can be saved by the shedding of their own blood in the name of Christ. Plus I also remember seeing another infallible statement which said there is no remission for sins whatsoever for anyone outside the Church

Bazz · « **Reply #14 on:** December 28, 2010, 12:03:51 AM »

Ordinary versus extraordinary?

Think about how the ordinary minister of baptism is a priest. They say the extraordinary minister is a deacon, or in emergencies - a layman. The point being that ordinary is the common, usual way.

This is where you go totally wrong in the first place Deliveringit1 (DI), concerning infallibility. The ordinary and infallible way the Church teaches is NOT by the extraordinary method of papal definitions and Councils. See what the Vatican Council of 1870 taught about this:

"...all those things are to be believed with divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God, written or handed down, and which the Church, either by a solemn judgment or by her ordinary and universal magisterium, proposes for belief as having been divinely revealed."

So, what do you, DI, believe with divine and Catholics faith that has only been taught in the common, usual way and NOT by the extraordinary magisterium?

The quotes I gave were the common teaching believed by all, throughout the centuries, and without controversy. Had they been against solemn teaching, the Church would not have failed to mention they were heresy.

Your whole concept of infallibility, DI, is mistaken. This is a root problem with those infected by Feeneyism.